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Dr. Zogby on CNN's Larry King Live - January 3, 2009

AAI
Posted on Monday January 5, 2009

Transcript:
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BLITZER: So what should the United States be doing right now?

Joining us, two special quests, the Harvard law professor, Alan Dershowitz. His new book is entitled "The Case of Against Israel's Enemies. Its publisher is Wylie (ph).

Also joining us here in Washington is James Zogby, the president of the Arab-American Institute.

Jim, what should the outgoing Bush administration and the incoming Obama administration be doing right now?

JAMES ZOGBY, PRESIDENT, ARAB-AMERIAN INSTITUTE: Most certainly, what the Bush administration should do is learn the lessons of the past. Their own past, actually. A cease-fire immediately is what's in order. This is going nowhere, but actually bringing everybody into hell. It's going to be Lebanon all over again. Moderates are going to be weakened, extremists strengthened. Hamas will be hurt, but extremism in the region will be aided by this venture.

And, you know, the Israelis are doing it in order to win an election, but at what cost. The cost will be an enormous setback for them in the broader region.

If America were a friend of Israel, it would call for an end now. What you do in the long term is, you've got to end the occupation. This is getting us nowhere, getting Israel in deeper and hurting the Palestinians more.

BLITZER: Alan Dershowitz, you're looking at the live pictures from Gaza. You see the plumes of smoke coming up. This fighting clearly escalating, intensifying even as we speak. What should the outgoing Bush administration and the incoming Obama administration be doing?

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, LAW PROFESSOR, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: It's should recognize that Hamas and other terrorist groups have created a terrible dilemma for democracies by firing rockets at citizens, one million of them. One recently hit kindergarten students. Could have killed 50 or 60 young Israeli children. And then hiding behind civilians and having the rockets come from civilians, they put democracy to a terrible choice. Either do nothing and let your own civilians be killed, which no democracy could do, or respond and be accused of disproportionately, because whenever you respond effectively to that kind of tactic, it will involve civilian deaths.

Look, let's think of an analogy. If a bank robber holds a hostage, and starts shooting from behind the hostage, and a policeman, in an effort to stop the shooting by the bank robber, shoots and kills the hostage, under the law of every country, it's the bank robber who's guilty of murder, not the policeman. That's what's going on. That's what's going on.

BLITZER: Hold on...

DERSHOWITZ: Unless you learn that lesson, this tactic will persist.

BLITZER: I want to point out the live pictures you're seeing. Take a look at that. You're seeing these live pictures coming in from Gaza right now. We don't know what's causing those plumes of smoke to go up there, but it clearly looks like this fighting is intensifying.

Jim Zogby, go ahead.

ZOGBY: Alan, this isn't a bank robbery.

The reality here, Wolf, is these bombs are falling on Gaza, terrorizing young children in Gaza. And the fact is that the trauma that this creates will play itself out in the long term, as it has been playing itself out since this all began, when the occupation started some 40-something years ago. We have to find a way to get out of this hole.

And what Alan proposes and what the Israeli government is doing has no end game. The fact here is that there are pathologies playing out on both sides. What they've need is adult supervision. And the United States has been absent.

So you ask what needs to be done. Alan says nothing.

DERSHOWITZ: No, I don't say nothing.

ZOGBY: Let the Israelis play it out. I say, no, stop it now. And begin to find, as the Bush administration has not done, a political way out of this.

We did have an opportunity, some few years ago, when the Saudi Arabians organized and helped create a Mecca accord. Israel didn't honor it. And the U.S. wouldn't support it.

BLITZER: Alan Dershowitz, you said the U.S. should be doing something. What should be the U.S. Be doing?

DERSHOWITZ: They should be doing what they did under Bill Clinton, and that is offer the Palestinian a two-state solution. Hamas has repeatedly rejected that. The problem is, you can't try to start with the Saudi initiatives or any of the other initiatives when Hamas, which controls Gaza, simply won't recognize Israel's right to exist.

Hamas is not concerned about the occupation since '67. Jim and I agree that the occupation should be ended. They believe all of Israel is occupied. They talk about a 60-year occupation, not a 41-year occupation.

So Israel has to, in order to make peace, make sure that Hamas is not in control of the Gaza and can't scuttle any peace effort by rockets. If it can defeat and destroy Hamas in the Gaza, that will be a very important step toward peace. It could then make peace with the Palestinians.

BLITZER: All right, Alan Dershowitz and Jim Zogby, they're both standing by. We're going to continue this discussion.

And we'll take a quick break. But look at these live pictures coming in from Gaza right now where the fighting is escalating.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: These are live pictures you're seeing right now from Gaza. You can see on the left part of your screen, that looks like a mosque with a minarets going up there.

Jim Zogby, as you see these pictures, and these are incredible, what goes through your mind?

ZOGBY: I've been there. I've been to Jambalaya. I've been to Gaza City.

BLITZER: Before the refugee camps?

ZOGBY: I've been to Gaza City. It is the most densely populated place on earth. What, with Ron Brown, he said there was no place poorer. He called it worse than Suedo (ph).

The fact is you have 1.5 million people, more than half little children, playing, for the most, part in open sewage, because it is desperately poor. And Israel provided no infrastructure. Now they're being terrorized this way.

We have learned from the past that wars of this sort do not defeat the enemy. What they end up doing is creating a greater sense of solidarity.

So what is going to happen here is what happened when Alan and I debated in 2006. And he said they were going to eliminate Hezbollah, Hamas. and the extremist currents will be strengthened. People will be angry. Every one of those people who died, their family, and they will never forgive Israel or the united states for this.

The point is that Israel doesn't understand. There's no end game here. And so their pathologies are no different than the pathologies of the other side. They need to be stopped and restrained. And America has to help.

BLITZER: Alan Dershowitz, when you see these pictures, what goes through your mind?

DERSHOWITZ: I've been there too. I've been to Sterote (ph). I was there one night when a rocket hit.

BLITZER: Sterote (ph) is in southern Israel.

DERSHOWITZ: Right. I saw the thousands of rockets. Barack Obama went there as well. And he said what I said, and that is, if my children were being exposed to rocket fire every night, I would understand what Israel has to do to stop it.

My question to your audience, and even to Jim, is what would you do if rockets were raining down on you? You would have to put an end to it. If a cease-fire will put an end to it, fine. If a political situation puts an end to it, fine. When you have Hamas, that broke the cease-fire, that said we will not respect the cease-fire, that will use a temporary cease-fire to simply rearm, you have to ask yourself what would you do.

ZOGBY: Alan, I'm not going to shill for Hamas. They are wrong and they have been wrong. Even before this all began they've been wrong. But the Israeli government is not right either. And America has to help...

DERSHOWITZ: What should Israel do?

ZOGBY: Unfortunately, Israel apparently can't help itself because it keeps making the wrong choices.

DERSHOWITZ: What would you do? What would you do if...

ZOGBY: I would ask America to help provide restraint and to help create a condition for Israel and the Palestinians.

DERSHOWITZ: I agree. I agree.

BLITZER: Guys, we have to wrap it up right there. But our coverage will continue.

Jim Zogby, Alan Dershowitz, thanks to both of you.