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Dr. Zogby Discusses the Crisis in Gaza on CNN's Larry King Live - January 4, 2009

AAI
Posted on Monday January 5, 2009

On Sunday, January 4, Dr. Zogby appeared on CNN's Larry King Live to discuss the crisis in Gaza. The video is available below in two parts. Click here for the full transcript.

Full Transcript:

KING: Joining us now in Miami, Alan Dershowitz, professor of Harvard Law School, best-selling author and his latest book is "The Case Against Israel's Enemies." In Washington, James Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute.

Now we all know what's been going on. We've heard the previous segment.

Alan, why is Israel right?

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, AUTHOR, THE CASE AGAINST ISRAEL'S ENEMIES: Well, Israel is right because no democracy is required to play Russian roulette with the lives of its children. 6,000 missiles have hit in Israel. They've hit kindergartens, they've hit schools.

Fortunately, Israel has built shelters and they've had only a few dozen casualties. But it's only a matter of time until a rocket hits a kindergarten within 40 or 50 kids in it.

Proportionality doesn't require a nation to sit back and accept these kinds of missiles. The fact that civilians are being killed is completely the fault of Hamas for hiding behind civilians.

They are committing a triple war crime by targeting Israeli civilians, by using their own civilians as human shields, and by...

KING: James?

DERSHOWITZ: ... pulling for the destruction of a member state of the United Nations.

KING: James, there's no question there, is there, that Hamas started this?

JAMES ZOGBY, PRESIDENT, ARAB AMERICAN INSTITUTE: Well, listen, the fact is that there has been an ongoing conflict between the Palestinians and the Israelis over that border in Gaza since the beginning of the occupation in 1967.

DERSHOWITZ: Over the border in Gaza?

ZOGBY: And even --- would you...

KING: Hold it, Alan. Hold it.

ZOGBY: Be cool, Alan. Alan, I gave you plenty of time.

DERSHOWITZ: But there's no dispute about the border.

KING: Alan, let him finish.

ZOGBY: Israel withdrew, as they said, in 2005 but continued to maintain almost complete closure over Gaza, making it impossible for decent human life to take place. Unemployment among youth, 80 percent, unemployment in the entire country, 70 percent. 40 -- 50 percent among the adult population. But the poverty level is crushing and the fact here is that even when the cease-fire was winding down, Israel chose that moment to make a provocation by crossing into the border on an assault against Hamas fighters.

Now there is no side here that's right. I am not going to be a defender of Hamas' provocative behavior. But neither should Alan be defending what Israel has done or is doing now.

The fact is, both sides are playing out pathologies and there's no adult supervision. I fault the United States...

KING: Alan?

ZOGBY: ... for not helping to unwind the situation years ago and certainly for not providing restraint.

Now Alan is making the same...

KING: Alan...

ZOGBY: ... arguments that he made today that he made in 2006 when the Lebanon travesty was taking place. The outcome would be the same.

KING: Now that does...

ZOGBY: Nothing good will come of this.

KING: Alan, does James -- Alan, does James have a point?

DERSHOWITZ: No, he doesn't a point, unfortunately.

KING: No point?

DERSHOWITZ: The international border has been recognized. Israel pulled back completely and there's no dispute about the border at all. And in fact, the reason why Hamas is suffering of poverty is because all the money they've gotten has been spent on buying missiles, on digging tunnels, the corruption that has denied the people of Palestine hospital care and medical care.

They've made a decision to destroy their own people. And don't come crying to the international community that these humanitarian crisis, when the Hamas government has caused the humanitarian crisis.

Remember, Hamas has declared war in Israel.

ZOGBY: Alan...

DERSHOWITZ: Under Article 51 Israel is entitled to respond by saying we are going to win this war. We're going to demand an unconditional surrender the way Great Britain did when Germany fired missiles at it and the way the United States did when Pearl Harbor was attacked.

ZOGBY: Way, the way to unwind extremism and the way, ultimately, to isolate and defeat Hamas is to provide an opportunity for the Palestinians to feel hope. They feel no hope and Israel has given them no opportunity to feel no hope.

DERSHOWITZ: On the West Bank...

(CROSSTALK)

KING: Let me go to break, guys.

(CROSSTALK)

KING: I have to get a break in. We'll come right back.

DERSHOWITZ: Even on the West Bank, there's a wall being built.

KING: We'll be right back with Alan Dershowitz -- hold it, guys. We'll be right back with Alan Dershowitz and James Zogby. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: James Zogby, getting down to the crux of it, how does this end? Logically, how does this end?

ZOGBY: Well, when Israel has entered now into Gaza with a massive ground force, one sees actually a difficulty in how it ends. The fact is that it will be much more difficult to leave than it was to go in. The casualty rate is simply increasing among civilians.

Alan says because Hamas hides behind civilians, but this is one of the most densely populated places on earth. And unlike any other place on earth, refugees have nowhere to go. They cannot cross a border. There is no border to cross.

Israel controls access...

KING: All right.

ZOGBY: ... and egress from everywhere. And, therefore, what is happening here is that the 500, 600, 700, lord knows how many, will die before it's over. Families will hate and fear and be angry for the rest of their lives and then some.

And so there is no good that comes of this.

KING: All right. Alan...

ZOGBY: And there probably will be a cease-fire but with enormous pain, and frankly, the majority of that on the Palestinian side. This is not a good thing.

KING: Alan. Alan, how does it end, Alan?

DERSHOWITZ: It ends with Hamas being weakened and hopefully destroyed so that Israel can then sit down with the Palestinians and offer them again what Bill Clinton and what Ehud Barak offered them in 2000 and 2001 -- a state, the end of the occupation, a divided Jerusalem, a refugee reparations program. Remember, the Palestinians could have had a state in 1938, 1948, 1967, 2001, but they have always wanted to destroy the Jewish state more than they have ever wanted their own state.

Now the Palestinians...

ZOGBY: That's not true, Alan.

DERSHOWITZ: ... people through the PLO claim that they want a two- state solution. And Hamas is standing in the way of it. And the people who are rooting most loudly for the destruction of Hamas in Gaza are the Palestinian authority.

You know, if any member of the Palestinian authority walks into Gaza today, they'll get murdered. Gaza today is a terrorist state.

ZOGBY: There is no...

DERSHOWITZ: And the best thing that could happen would be the weakening or destruction of Hamas in Gaza.

KING: All right. James, why is that wrong?

DERSHOWITZ: And sitting down and creating a two-state...

ZOGBY: Israel was going to destroy the PLO in '82, it didn't. They were going to destroy Hezbollah in -- 2006, they didn't. They were going to destroy Hamas in 2006, and they didn't. This is not the way you defeat extremism. What it does is it makes the extremist current more -- in fact, more virulent than before and creates more supporters.

The weak -- the party that will be weakened in all of this, tragically, are the moderates like President Abbas and moderate Arab leaders who are looking weak in the eyes of their own people.

DERSHOWITZ: But, Jim, you were a reasonable guy.

ZOGBY: Listen, Alan...

DERSHOWITZ: What would you do if you were an Israeli? Would you not -- would you not defend your people against rocket attacks? What would you do?

ZOGBY: If I were an Israeli, I wouldn't be building settlements. I wouldn't have...

DERSHOWITZ: Forget about that. We're talking about...

ZOGBY: And I wouldn't have walls, and I wouldn't, in Gaza, strangle the people of Gaza so that impact Hamas had the support that it did, the fact is that the fact strangulation and deprivation of the people of Gaza has been going for years now.

DERSHOWITZ: But they would still be firing rockets.

ZOGBY: And therefore, I ask the question.

DERSHOWITZ: Read their charter. Read their charter.

ZOGBY: I ask the question, Alan.

DERSHOWITZ: Yes.

ZOGBY: You say to me what would I do if bombed...

DERSHOWITZ: Yes, what would you do now?

ZOGBY: I ask you what you would do if you could not feed your family? If you could not find a job? If you were denied the opportunity to live.

DERSHOWITZ: I would overthrow -- I would overthrow the government of Hamas and make them feed my people instead of buying rockets and sending them into Israel and throw out the people who were destroying Hamas.

ZOGBY: And what Israel is doing is not going to help that, and that is the tragedy is that neither side will benefit from this.

DERSHOWITZ: You know what...

ZOGBY: And that's the tragedy.

DERSHOWITZ: What Barack Obama...

ZOGBY: We're playing off the same song we have played off in 2006.

DERSHOWITZ: No, that's not true. What Barack Obama said...

ZOGBY: You did not accomplish anything then and it's not accomplishing anything now.

DERSHOWITZ: Don't save me, it's the Israeli government.

ZOGBY: You defend it had, Alan.

DERSHOWITZ: What Barack -- what Barack Obama...

ZOGBY: You were the counsel.

DERSHOWITZ: What Barack Obama said when he went to (INAUDIBLE)...

KING: All right. Guys, I need to get a break.

DERSHOWITZ: ... is true. He should do -- he would do anything.

(CROSSTALK)

KING: (INAUDIBLE) get a break and we'll be back, we'll be back with more.

ZOGBY: What Barack Obama said... (CROSSTALK)

KING: OK. We'll be back with more. Both these guys like the Beatles, by the way.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: Thought I'd throw that in. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Alan Dershowitz, James Zogby.

Alan, can the Bush administration, in its waning days, get involved and help solve this?

DERSHOWITZ: Yes, I think they can. What I think they have to do is make it very clear that what Israel is doing is in defense of all democracies that are fighting terrorism. Terrorists have figured out a way of making it difficult for democracies.

That is, by attacking their civilians, hiding behind civilians and then showing the media the dead, quote, "children and women." It makes it very difficult to protect and defend their own citizens. If this works in Gaza, it is coming to a theater near you. It will become the paradigm for attacking democracies all over the world.

And that's why Israel has to be encouraged to put an end to the rocket attacks. And I have asked Jim Zogby a dozen times what would you do now if your people were being attacked? If rockets were hitting your schools? If rockets were hitting your kindergartens?

If Russian roulette was being played with your children? Would you simply sit back and let it happen or would you stop the rockets? And how do you stop the rockets?

KING: All right. That is -- that's a fair question, Jim. How would you respond?

ZOGBY: The answer here is that, of course, one has the right to self-defense and the issue, though, is one has to look at how you effectively do that, and you quoted Barack Obama a while ago.

DERSHOWITZ: Right.

ZOGBY: But Barack Obama also said something else quite interesting when he spoke to Jewish leadership in Cleveland in 2008. He said, if the only way we can find a way to make peace for Israel, if you think the only way, he said to the Jewish leadership, is that we have to help Israel destroy all of its enemies and never talk to them, we're not going to move -- get progress going forward on that.

DERSHOWITZ: I agree on that.

ZOGBY: The fact here is that all Israel has been done has been to strangle Gaza and to retaliate and constantly strike against the Palestinian people. It has not offered them any opening toward peace.

You say they want to make peace. Wait, Alan. You say they want to make peace in the West Bank with the Palestinian leadership there.

DERSHOWITZ: Right. Right.

ZOGBY: But what they have done is humiliate them with settlements and with roadblocks and with the wall that continues to snake into the territories, taking more land all the time.

DERSHOWITZ: That will not stop terrorism.

ZOGBY: The fact is, is that if you want to make peace and you want to stop the rockets, you then find a way to give people hope, to isolate extremists and give Palestinians a sense that the future can be brighter than today.

DERSHOWITZ: I agree with that.

ZOGBY: I want that. I want it for the Israelis and the Palestinian people.

DERSHOWITZ: Jim...

ZOGBY: But what Israel is doing is not helping to move the ball forward now, before and I fear into the future, because no one is helping them do the right thing.

DERSHOWITZ: Jim...

ZOGBY: Neither Bush nor you, in defending their action, is helping them make the right choices for peace.

DERSHOWITZ: When Prince Bandar, who was the representative of Saudi Arabia, went to the Camp David meetings in (INAUDIBLE) meeting and said to Arafat, you are committing a crime against the Palestinian people by rejecting the offer of statehood, 98 percent of the West Bank, full, complete statehood in Gaza, capital in Jerusalem and reparations, $35 billion.

And Arafat walked away from statehood, that was the tragedy that led to this all. And I'm hoping that Barack Obama -- well, I'm -- don't quote me. I'm quoting Prince Bandar.

ZOGBY: I know, but that's not what happened at Camp David.

DERSHOWITZ: I'm quoting Dennis Ross.

ZOGBY: Yes.

DERSHOWITZ: That's what your opinion is but let me tell you, the people who were there know what happened.

ZOGBY: I have spoken to the people who were including American negotiators.

DERSHOWITZ: The Palestinians turning down statehood, turned down statehood.

ZOGBY: Read Rob Mally and you'll -- get a very different narrative of what happened at Camp David.

DERSHOWITZ: Well, that's why Rob Mally is not currently advising the government. When Barack Obama becomes the president, he will understand how to do what Bill Clinton tried to do and Ehud Barak have tried to do and the Palestinian people will have a chance to get statehood again but only if Hamas...

KING: All right.

ZOGBY: You're a great lawyer for guilty clients, Alan. It doesn't work, though, in this case.

DERSHOWITZ: That's a cheap shot.

ZOGBY: Well, I'm sorry, but you've made cheap shots all night.

DERSHOWITZ: That's a cheap shot.

ZOGBY: Sorry about that.

KING: Jim, the one point he asked, you didn't answer.

ZOGBY: Right.

KING: If you were being attacked, would you attack back?

ZOGBY: Retaliate, you have the right to defend your own citizens.

KING: Would you retaliate?

ZOGBY: But you also cannot take continued, provocative actions that put your citizens at risk and expect anything other than this. Israel has set itself up. Hamas has set itself up.

That's why I said, Larry, we have two pathologies playing out with no adult supervision.

DERSHOWITZ: Now you're blaming...

ZOGBY: I'm blaming both sides because have become victims of each other. And both...

KING: Thank you both very much.

ZOGBY: ... are making more victims every single day.

KING: We'll have you on again.

(CROSSTALK)

KING: Great having you both with us.

Alan Dershowitz and James Zogby.