Dr. James Zogby
In the News
Transcript of Zogby and Liz Cheney on the ‘Situation Room’ with Wolf Blitzer
CNN
Posted on Friday September 25, 2009
BLITZER: President Obama on the world stage today telling the United Nations General Assembly he wants to lead the United States into a new era in global relations.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Those who used to chastise America for acting alone in the world cannot now stand by and wait for America to solve the world’s problems alone. We have sought in word and deed a new era of engagement with the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Let’s talk about this and more with Liz Cheney, former principal deputy assistant secretary of state during the Bush administration, and James Zogby, the president of the Arab American Institute.
Anything wrong with that approach, Liz, that the president outlined today?
LIZ CHENEY, FORMER U.S. DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, I think that you have got to focus on what the U.N. actually could deliver.
And I was concerned about a number of places in the president’s speech where he really sort of seemed to take shots at the previous administration, but also talk about things like nuclear disarmament, in the sense that, if the United States disarms, somehow, it will encourage the Iranians, the North Koreans to disarm.
I do think that there was some naivete in this speech. And I think there was a lot of sort of places where he could have done more to talk about freedom, he could have done more to talk about democracy. Those words seemed to me to be missing from the speech.
So, you know, I think he got applause at the United Nations. And I think people are expecting him to deliver in a way that we, frankly, haven’t seen so far (INAUDIBLE).
BLITZER: It was a very different speech that President Obama gave, Jim, than we heard from President Bush. JAMES ZOGBY, PRESIDENT, ARAB AMERICAN INSTITUTE: But it was expected to be different because this is President Obama and he is setting a different tone. He’s rebuilding relationships and reconstructing America’s role in the world and I think, in some important ways, helping to lay the foundation for accomplishing many of the things that — that we all want to see — disarmament, movement on the climate, movement on international trade and Middle East peace.
I mean the point is, is that this is a president with a mission. The mission is to get us out of the hole and enter, as he said, the pivotal age that we’re in with a new era of cooperation — not bringing over the baggage of the last century, but moving forward and being a generation that makes change.
BLITZER: And on the Israeli-Palestinian front, he said this today.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The United States does Israel no favors when we fail to couple an unwavering commitment to its security with an insistence that Israel respect the legitimate claims and rights of the Palestinians.
(APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: And — and nations within this body do the Palestinians no favors when they choose vitriolic attacks against Israel over a constructive willingness to recognize Israel’s legitimacy and its right to exist in peace and security.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: A fair and balanced approach, right?
CHENEY: Yes. You know, I think it was interesting, though, you didn’t hear any mention of Hamas. And I think it’s — it is very naive, frankly, to think that you can work out some sort of arrangement between the Israelis and the Palestinians with Mahmoud Abbas and ignore the fact that that Hamas, in fact, rules…
BLITZER: What do you want to do with Hamas?
CHENEY: …rules Gaza.
BLITZER: What should he have said?
CHENEY: I think what you need to do is build Palestinian institutions. And I think the real problem with the approach that we’re seeing now — two problems. One is that it takes the focus away from building the institutions that the Palestinians need to have a real state — things like security institutions, things like a civil society. And secondly, it ignores the real threat that we and Israel face together, as well as our Arab allies across the Middle East, which is the threat of Iran. And I think by forcing this intensive focus on, you know, bilateral meetings and bilateral photo-ops, in fact, you’re taking attention away from the things that might actually help to bring peace between these two nations.
BLITZER: He did get a handshake between Netanyahu and Abbas.
ZOGBY: Well, the handshake is — is not the point. The point is, is that the president has laid out a track and he’s determined to move on that track — final status negotiations, he wants to see them happen.
But with regard to what Liz said, the fact is, is that the Palestinians are building institutions. And they are making a determined effort, despite living under an aggressive occupation, to move forward. The two year plan to move forward by Prime Minister Fayyad is impressive and deserves to be supported and it supported by this administration. The president made mention of the progress in security. He made mention of the progress on building a new economy. And the role of the private sector in the West Bank is something that cannot be ignored. They are doing great work…
BLITZER: Even…
ZOGBY: …under the most difficult circumstances.
BLITZER: Liz, yesterday, even Prime Minister Netanyahu alluded — referred several times in the interview here in THE SITUATION ROOM to the economic progress of the West Bank.
(CROSSTALK)
ZOGBY: Let me just finish, though, Liz.
(CROSSTALK)
ZOGBY: Let me just finish Liz.
BLITZER: All right. Hold on. One at a time. Go ahead…
(CROSSTALK)
CHENEY: Prime Minister Netanyahu…
BLITZER: Hold on one second.
CHENEY: — also said in your interview in THE SITUATION ROOM was that it would be a tremendous step forward in this peace process if the Palestinians would simply acknowledge the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state. You know, he’s asking for something that — that seems to be, you know, very doable.
And I guess I would ask, you know, Jim, why won’t Mahmoud Abbas say that — that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state? ZOGBY: Because the issue of how you define yourself as a state is something for the people of that state. You recognize Israel, which the Palestinians have done and the PLO signed several agreements and renounced their charter three different times. One, I was there and in the face of President Clinton, making it clear that they recognize the existence of Israel.
But the question of a Jewish state, again, is an issue for Israel. Two reasons — two problems. One is 20 percent of the population is Arab and what we’d be saying if we were not…
CHENEY: So you don’t think it should be a Jewish state?
ZOGBY: …if we are not careful. The question is…
CHENEY: Then that’s news, Wolf…
ZOGBY: …it’s a state for…
CHENEY: …if that’s what Jim is saying today.
ZOGBY: No. It’s a — it’s a state for the people of Israel. There also is a debate in Israel over what it means to be a Jewish state between orthodox and reform, who have a problem in how you define it. The question…
CHENEY: But I would imagine if you took a poll in Israel…
ZOGBY: The question is not…
CHENEY: …you would find a vast majority…
ZOGBY: …is not for the Palestinians to do it…
CHENEY: …of Israeli citizens who said they think they’re a Jewish state, actually.
ZOGBY: …as I’m reading the press in Israel, they’re saying we define ourselves. We don’t need the Palestinians to define us. And so that is not an issue to be on the table. It is not the deal…
CHENEY: Prime Minister Netanyahu thinks it’s an issue.
ZOGBY: Well, I think that he throws it up there as a camouflage for the issues that have to be dealt with, which are Jerusalem, settlements, final status issues like — like borders and — and refugees.
BLITZER: Let me…
ZOGBY: Those are the issues…
BLITZER: Let me just…
ZOGBY: …that have to be negotiated between the parties, not how each state defines itself… BLITZER: You — you…
ZOGBY: …whether a Muslim state, Christian state, a Jewish state…
BLITZER: You made the point.
ZOGBY: …that’s something that the people of Israel will do themselves.
BLITZER: …Liz, that Iran is the big issue right now. We’re getting ready to hear from Ahmadinejad, the president of Iran, right now.
Do you believe this outreach from the Obama administration, from the Europeans, trying to establish a dialogue, working, trying to get the Iranians to stop a nuclear weapons program, if, in fact, that’s what they’re doing, has a chance of success?
CHENEY: No. And I think it’s been very damaging so far. In fact, I think if you look at the track record of this administration since January, each moment when we have reached our hand out and said we want to negotiate, the Iranians have rejected it. The Iranians have either made speeches condemning us or they have sent letters condemning us. They’ve rejected it.
Now, we also had news yesterday that President Obama met with President Hu Jintao of China. And the White House tells us he was forceful in demanding sanctions.
Well, in response, we learned today that the Chinese, in fact, are now providing up to a third of Iran’s gas supplies.
BLITZER: Can — can this…
CHENEY: So the sanctions…
BLITZER: …diplomacy work with Iran?
CHENEY: The only way the diplomacy will work — let me just finish — is if the Iranians and the rest of the world believe that we’re going to use force if the diplomacy fails. They don’t believe that now.
ZOGBY: We’ve not given it a chance and we are now giving it a chance. But at the same time, Iran’s behavior is isolating it, actually making our outreached hand, their bizarre and aggressive behavior is making it more possible to achieve the kind of international isolation that we want to pressure the regime.
BLITZER: All right…
ZOGBY: Understand that in the last eight years, nothing was done to help retard Iranian development. In fact, everything was done to increase both extremism in the region and the war in Iraq, which emboldened Iran, has put us precisely in the situation we’re in today. It is a threat…
(CROSSTALK)
ZOGBY: …but this administration is dealing with this…
CHENEY: That’s absolutely not true.
ZOGBY: …threat, I think…
CHENEY: But when is…
ZOGBY: …in a smart way.
CHENEY: When are you going to say, OK, they’ve had a chance?
Are you going to give them I mean like, what, we’re going to give them 12 months to see if the Iranians said…
ZOGBY: Well, your administration had eight years…
CHENEY: …say you’re right. Right.
ZOGBY: And this administration has had eight months…
CHENEY: And we freed 50 million people.
ZOGBY: And, actually…
CHENEY: We liberated the people in Iraq.
ZOGBY: …in the last eight months…
CHENEY: And we (INAUDIBLE).
BLITZER: All right…
ZOGBY: …had more progress in building international…
CHENEY: …safe from attack.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Here’s what I want. I want both of you to come back. We’ve got a lot more to talk about. I wanted to ask you about Moammar Gadhafi and the Bush administration opening up the door, but we’ll leave that for another occasion.
CHENEY: But Moammar Gadhafi gave away his nukes because he saw that we went in and we took down Saddam Hussein. That’s a lesson that ought to be something that they learn in the Obama White House.
BLITZER: All right, guys. Thanks very much for coming in.
We’ll continue this down the road.
CHENEY: Thanks.
ZOGBY: Thank you.
The original transcript can be found here: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0909/23/sitroom.03.html
