Dr. James Zogby

Viewpoint with James Zogby: January 15, 2009 Episode

Posted on Friday January 23, 2009

Partial Transcript:

James Zogby: Hi. I am Jim Zogby. We have and reporter live from Gaza, and we will discuss the prospects of peace for the region and how the Jewish community is looking at this. First, I want to welcome the columnist for "The Washington Post," where he writes off and columns that appear twice a week in more than -- many papers. He also worked as a foreign correspondent. He is author of several books, including one on Americans that a politics, and his latest one is called "sold out." If you would, I would like you to help set the stage. We noted on previous shows, the anniversary of Martin Luther King's speech, the inaugural speech, the day after the Martin Luther King holiday -- actually, Martin Luther King's 80th birthday, and expectations are high here. Talk to us a little bit about those expectations and whether or not he is a president who can succeed.

EJ Dionne: You're absolutely right about the historic nature of this. Barack Obama is our first African American President, and given our history with the race issue and would slavery as our original sin, a lot of people said this is just an extraordinary moment, but there are so many ways in which Barack Obama is also a significant person. He is the son of an immigrant. His father emigrated here from Kenya. He is biracial. There are many, many more by racial couples in the country. I think it is said that his parents' marriage would be illegal in many states of our union at the time that they got married. He is someone, I think, who for people in the country, especially some of the poorest people in our country, some of the most disadvantaged Americans, is a sign that things can be different in this country. A lot of people are saying that expectations of him are too high and that he cannot meet them, and in some cases, that is right, because expectations are so high both here and overseas that they are hard to meet. On the other hand, he has got the blessing of taking power at a moment of great crisis for the United States, both at home and abroad, and one of my friends at the Brookings Institution notes that while it is a very difficult time to be president, it is a great time to be a great president. Great presidents emerged out of these types of situations, and I have been reading a lot about FDR and I have always had a passion for the 1930's, which I never thought would be applicable. There is this calm optimism that he conveys in the sense that he does not, at least, feel overwhelmed about these problems, and that is why he takes office with an approval rating of something like 71%, so even people who did not vote for him are optimistic about him.

James Zogby: Those who saw in his presidency from the beginning, from his candidacy in the beginning, he inspired the "yes, we can," "no problem is too great that we cannot solve," nothing was impossible, and yet, in the months preceding his inauguration, he has been trying to tamp some of these expectations down. Did he set himself up?

EJ Dionne: He argues that the only way to begin to solve the problems was to have a new kind of politics, and I was speaking to a Spanish journalist whose parents are actually coming over for his inauguration from Barcelona, and we were trying to think about why it is that Barack Obama has inspired so much hope and interest overseas, and there is the sense of exhaustion and unhappiness in a lot of our democracies. A lot of the democracies of the world. He has conveyed this sense that surprising things can happen, that change is possible, and I do not think that goes away, and because the problems are so enormous, while expectations of him are very high, I do not think people are under any illusion that, for example, the economy is going to suddenly be healed, that he is going to pull out a wand and that it will be healed. There are no illusions about withdrawing from Iraq. He has talked about that, but nobody thinks that will be easy. Even the Israeli-Palestinian dispute any easier or that Afghanistan or Pakistan will be easier, so what I think is what he has is a sense of realism, and least on the part of the American public, and the last thing that he has, and I think all presidents need a Herbert Hoover. There is an FDR that people blame the problems we bring in in 1933. President Bush leaves office with a very, very low popularity rating. A lot of people seem to want to hang things on him. I think as a statement about where the American people are, it is true, and that also gives him an advantage.

James Zogby: The collapse of the Bush presidency began in 2005 and accelerated in 2006 with multiple crises, which he handled very badly, beginning with Katrina and then a rock exploding, etc., etc. It is sort of a trauma among the American populace, which is intriguing to me about this campaign, because what happens during times of stress, people seek certainty and confirmation of the past. We have seen that also in our own history, too. This is an interesting election because people went in the different direction, and they voted for change and also for a relative unknown, who they chose to believe in. There is something interesting about that.

EJ Dionne: You're absolutely right. I think one of the greatest things about this country is not that we do things right the first time. We often make mistakes the first time and often the second time in the third time, but there is a great capacity in this country for self correction. With any democracy, there is that possibility of self correction, and I think starting with, as you say, in 2005, the American people looked at the course we were on and said this is not working anymore. With the 2006 midterm elections, indeed, part of the 2008 situation was already set in 2006, so the country was already prepared for change, and then Obama came along, and I think when you saw the struggle between Obama and Mrs. Clinton in the primaries, there are many different reasons why that came out the way it did, but in a simple way, once the country decided it wanted change, then in the Democratic Party, they wanted a bigger change.

James Zogby: Mrs. Clinton, and then there is the Rick Warren, not his appointment, but the designation of him being the one to give the inaugural prayer, etc., and people started to say, "Wait." Changing who he is or how he will be seen even before he becomes president?

EJ Dionne: I think Barack Obama is a kind of podium figure, like a lot of successful politicians, somebody who has a lot of size. There were others like that. On the one hand, he is an agent of change, but he has an extremely cautious street. He is someone whose broad political sympathies are left of center. Being pragmatic eventually and to be progressive. We think about these three different choices. The choice in Gates I think could mean, and we will find out, not that he is ready to change, but that having a figure from the previous administration, he can bless the changes you want to make, including a withdrawal from Iraq, and that actually makes it more sustainable politically. It is clear that Gates indicated a change from Rumsfeld, and I think they hit it off. With Mrs. Clinton," I will negotiate with anyone," and remember, Mrs. Clinton criticized him for that.

James Zogby: In her hearings, the day before yesterday, when she basically was echoing the Obama message. That is interesting. She has been the one to change more than he.

EJ Dionne: Right. When she took this job, she was clearly ready to work for Barack Obama. One of the points she made is that Secretary Gates has said that he would rather give up some money from defense budget to strengthen our State Department, to strengthen our diplomatic and peace of capabilities overseas, and then the Rick Warren choice is complicated. On the gay marriage issue, Barack Obama himself is against gay marriage, and I think making a small gesture to white, evangelical Christians, who voted in large measure is against him, is part of his style of constantly trying to broaden the coalition he has. A lot of conservatives.

James Zogby: Can we talk about an Obama Democrat? I remember at the 2004 Democratic convention, I heard Ted Kennedy speak one night. "I know what a Democrat is." Then I thought, I do not know what it is. I do not know what this means. Is there a message here about what an Obama Democrat is?

EJ Dionne: I think an Obama at Democrat is first of all defined by youth. One of the most important things that happened in this election was a massive movement of young people toward Obama, and that has been going on for a young time. This young generation is very progressive, the only group where there are more liberals and conservatives. It is about youth and a certain freedom from old fights. He was not affected by the fights from the 1960's, and he talks about turning a page of history, so I think an Obama Democrat might be described as someone who is progressive but of a bit freer of some of the old burdens, and a progressive that is taking power at a time of conservative decline, and rather than acting defensively about being progressive, he is actually someone who could build that into something along. I do not want to be like Karl Rove, but it could set the stage for a political realignment.

James Zogby: On the other side, the Republicans. I remember seeing Republican candidates on stage, and each one of them represent a different thread about what ultimately was woven together to become Reaganism. Nobody was able to bring that together, and now they are trying to decide where the Republican Party goes, and where does it go? Does it become a hostile opposition if the religious right is weakened or strengthened by this, or are we yet to see the creature that will emerge that will call itself the Republican Party?

EJ Dionne: I think I know what the Republican Party needs to do. I do not know if they are, themselves, decided on which way to go. I think we're already seeing, even before Obama takes the Oval Office, that they seem split on how much the want to cooperate and how much they oppose, and I think there is always been a kind of a natural alliance in conservatism that is sort of pro-business libertarians and what they care about then the evangelical, less affluent part. On many of the economic issues, they were not as clearly libertarian or right wing. On the whole, I think the party became too ideological. Starting to think more Dwight Eisenhower. They need to present a much more practical, problem-solving sort of conservatism, and they need to have less of this type of anti-government rhetoric. They are not going to dismantle Social Security. The country does not want that. They are not going to dismantle Medicare. They should be in the business of saying we can have better solutions rather than to pretend that smaller government and cutting taxes solves problems. People do not believe that now.

James Zogby: We have a number that you can call. Replacements, if you will. Biden's son, a placeholder for the senator that filled Biden's seat. In New York, you have the son of the current governor, David Paterson, debating among the son of Mario Cuomo and the daughter of John Kennedy. For awhile, you had Jesse Jackson's son running in Illinois, and then you have Bushes and Clinton'. There has been a whole talk about this question of American royalty, something owed to certain families. Is there a thread in America of this kind of entitlement that is playing out right now, or is something else going on?

EJ Dionne: I do not know if it is entitlement, though a lot of people perceive it that way. There were the adams. There has been a group representing New Jersey off and on for about 100 years, I think. Caroline Kennedy is, you know, the most peculiar situation, because she sort of have her big political coming out supporting Barack Obama. Barack Obama was a candidate who basically wanted to turn a page on both the Clintons and the Bushes, so the was a little bit of an anti-dynastic climate, and now it is coming back.

James Zogby: He became the heir of John Kennedy, as designated by Teddy and Caroline.

EJ Dionne: That is true. But this has come back. I think she is hurt by the fact. Having to fight for the seat by running for office. She is looking at that is the only way to get in right now, the appointment, and that looks like more of a gift then if you go round and travel to Buffalo and Utica and the rest of New York state to fight for the seat, and she just cannot do that.

James Zogby: A caller. Hello?

Caller: Yes. OK. Well, I lived in the Middle East for quite some time, and I noticed that people think that America is an evil country, while everybody wants to go to America, so I wanted to know what would Obama do to fix the image and to have some reality of what Americans are?

James Zogby: Thank you. I thank you for the question.

EJ Dionne: Thank you very much. He is talking about a trip to the Middle East very soon, precisely to explain America and explain where we are coming from to the Arab and more broadly the Muslim world, and I think that would be very constructive. It is also the fact that his very name, Barack Hussein Obama, which was seen as a political liability, although it turned out not to be enough to defeat him, is an enormous asset now. It is an asset now, but it is also an asset in the country, talk about us being prejudiced against someone with a Muslim name, and we were not, and that is a pretty powerful advertisements for the United States. It doesn't answer all of our problems. We still have problems, but it is a really powerful statement.

James Zogby: One more question about the role of religion. You write that the age of the religious right is over, but religion still plays a powerful role. Sort of sprinkling holy water on people. I will never forget the debate on the Vietnam War. "in the name of Jesus, I bless you." And then you have another sprinkling blood. The question, where does Jesus stand in all of this, and can you use religion in that way? We have been using religion in that way, both to validate our own believe, but you write about this in your book. It provides a window to something else. Talk about that, the role, the proper role, that religion should play.

EJ Dionne: If you look at all of our great religious traditions, they tend to call upon us to be critical, to be critical of ourselves and our own behavior, to be critical of the societies in which we live, not in a destructive way or a nasty way, but to call us to higher standards that many have talked about, and it certainly has been proven that God's name has been evoked in all sorts of things. Coming from a religious base, and you saw in the south through the African-American church, which was the base of a movement. You saw it in Poland, when secular people, atheists and Jews rose to throw over another group. It is almost always that it has been misused. When it is used to call people to higher standards and to question things, I think that is, in general, a more proper use of religion. That is all oversimplified.

James Zogby: The religious right, it is not so much the role of religion but of a particular use of religion as a tool of either validation or of anger, striking out at your opponents, as opposed to a critical questioning tool.

EJ Dionne: The white evangelical Christians, the base of the religious right, there is a renewed concern with a whole series of other issues that were not on their list before. Jesus said rather a lot about poor people. Our mutual friend said if you cut everything he said about the poor out of the New Testament, you are missing a lot. More engaged with the environment, and many of these folks still at the ballot box are voting, Republicans, still many conservative, but their vision of politics is much broader than the vision presented, say, by Jerry Falwell, the late Jerry Falwell, or Pat Robertson.

James Zogby: Caller, your question? Hello? Pennsylvania? OK. No caller from Pennsylvania.
I will let you go. Thank you for joining us.

EJ Dionne: Thank you.

James Zogby: And we will see you, I guess, in the new year, after we get the inauguration of the president. We will come back and get the latest from the situation in Gaza with our correspondent. Stay with us. We will be right back.

James Zogby: Welcome back. I am Jim Zogby. Now in its 20th day come aid agencies are reporting a death toll of thousands of Palestinians, more than one-third of them children, and the access there remains controlled with tight access by Israelis, and most journalists --
We have a native of Gaza city who is a reporter joins us now.

Taghreed El-Khoudary: Thank you, James.

James Zogby: You trying to cover this story. Do you have the ability to get around? What kind of mobility do you have right now?

Taghreed El-Khoudary: It is extremely hard, but I move around during the daylight. At 6:00 p.m., I just go home and stay indoors, but during the day, when going round, it is extremely dangerous, you know? Even getting to the hospital, going around, talking to people there is this feeling. For the past few days in Gaza city, tanks, and that was scary. Yesterday, yesterday in the morning, there was Israeli tanks firing at something for Abu Dhabi, your Station, and two of your colleagues or injured while they were filming that operation in Gaza city. It was a very strong message for them not to film the whole operation, and for me, I was at the emergency room, and all of a sudden, I know them. They are colleagues, and they're coming in as injured. Like, you know these people. You know others, and all of a sudden, it is Gaza city, and many people are coming, and they are injured, and you know their names. You know what they do, and it is really crazy. In your head, you could be one of these injured, one of these people who could be dead, and injuries, and the way, the weapons that they are using it is unbelievable.

James Zogby: You know, one of the things that has intrigued us here and has disturbed us to know and is that humanitarian crisis that existed in Gaza before this began has now only been magnified, and with the exception of your reporting and "The New York Times," we are just not getting a lot of that. You reported on two incredibly dramatic stories, the horrible tragedy that befell the One family, and then the shelling of the U.N. school. Talk to that to our listeners about that, for those who did not see your stories in "The New York Times."

Taghreed El-Khoudary: That was tragic. I mean, you are talking about members of the same family being killed and the sad part that the bodies are still there. The Red Cross cannot go and pick up the bodies. They cannot get inside. Luckily, once, the Red Cross made it inside, and they saved like four kids. I know one who is a 16-year-old, and he is the one who managed to feed those who stayed alive, but his mother died in front of him. Completely traumatized at the hospital. Telling me all of the time, "I still remember the last words my mother told me, to take care of the rest of the family," and He is 16, completely traumatized. There were several mortars, so now, we do not know about the mortars, but they hit them in the most densely populated refugee camp in the Gaza strip. They hit them when it was extremely crowded, when people were seeking shelter. They hit, you know, these bombs -- they were outside in front of the school, but also, one hit a roof where a family was staying. I mean, you know, OK. They are firing rockets, but to take this decision to shoot randomly, without responsibility, I mean, it is against any agreement.

James Zogby: Refugees International here and several other rights organizations have pointed out that one of the unique aspects of this is that this may be the first time that a civilian population is affected and has nowhere to go. We saw a mass of refugees pouring out of Afghanistan and pouring out of Iraq and other conflict areas, but there is nowhere for people in Gaza to go. Where are they going? What are they doing? I have been to Gaza City, and I know how densely populated -- it is one of the most densely populated places on earth. Where are they going when the shelling starts? Do they just hunker down where they go? Or are they finding refuge somewhere?

Taghreed El-Khoudary: I will tell you. The Israeli planes have been dropping leaflets in every spot of Gaza, in the Gaza strip. Let's talk about where we live. Asking me to leave my place. Where to go? No shelter. In other places, they are also asked to leave. People in other districts in Gaza city. We are not talking about refugee camps. We are talking about the citizens of Gaza. Whether it is a refugee camp in Gaza city, every spot -- every spot has been terrorized because of these leaflets, and not on the leaflets, but telephone calls, asking them to evacuate. Where to? We do not have a shelter here. People do not have shelter. That is the thing. And when they talk about schools, there is not enough for everyone. Every classroom, they ask every 40 members, every 40 people, to stay in one classroom. Imagine, different classes, leaving their home in the same city, and being asked to be refugees again, feeling that they are nothing, humiliated. I mean, I cannot even -- the shelters have been bombed. Schools bombed yesterday. The U.N. quarter was bombed. I mean, no place to go for the people, and you are talking about a place that is in complete control by the Israelis. You even cannot lead to another country.

James Zogby: Let me ask you one last question -- you cannot even leave to another country. Let me ask you one last question. One of the things that we keep being told is that one of the goals of this mission is to overthrow Hamas and replace it with a different authority, and they hope to turn people against Hamas. Is this happening? Is there a change in the public mood, or is there a hunkering down and anger that is being manifested?

Taghreed El Khoudary: OK, if we talk about opinion in the streets, it is divided now. Many people -- for many people, it is becoming clear that they are paying a price. Every citizen in Gaza, every individual in Gaza, that because you voted for Hamas, this will be it. Never vote for such a movement again, and a movement for the people here in Gaza, they view Hamas as a resistance movement. They have failed in government because they were not given a chance, and that is how people are thinking. Hamas was not given a chance and has been rejected by the world. By the U.S., by Israel, by some in the international community, and by some Arabs. Israel has touched everyone. They have bombed every police station, the parliament. That is for the people. Also, they hit the ministries. They have hit anything that came by the Palestinian. Nothing will come from the West Bank now. It is gone. It has been very strong and broken away. Now, public opinion -- it has been very strong and brutal in a way. There is a group of people, and it is very strong, that, wait a minute. We have one common enemy, and that is Israel, and Hamas is looking for the opening of the crossings and for our right of resistance because we are under occupation. That is the logic here. You do not know where it is going to go, but many people now prefer Hamas to keep as a movement, not as a party to exercise government.

James Zogby: Thank you so much, and be safe. Our thoughts and our prayers are with you and all of the people who are caught in this horrible, horrible situation. Thank you for being with us. When we come back, we are going to be joined by two representatives from a peace organization. We will take some of your questions. Do not go away.

James Zogby: Welcome back to "Viewpoint." I am James Zogby. The executive director of a political action committee and lobbying organization, who served as a deputy domestic policy adviser under Bill Clinton and also served under Howard Dean. I still have you in my telephone under Howard Dean. I have to shift you. You need your own entry form by telephone. We also have another guest. We have been through, all of us, this kind of thing so many times before, but in some ways, this one feels different, in terms in both the way our communities are reacting to it and the way some are at risk here, and the region. You have been writing about this. What is the difference about this? What is different about it?

M.J. Rosenberg: One thing that is different is just the disproportionately of injuries. A handful of Israelis killed. The report of so many dead, and so many children. I heard that of the 300 or so children, 50 are under the age of five. I think it is the same -- even though the Israelis are not letting the press in, the story is getting out, and I think it is the most upsetting story to come out of the Middle East in awhile. The humanitarian thing is a frightening.

James Zogby: Are alternative voices breaking through from the Jewish side? Unfortunately, I have been doing a TV show, and I end up with the guys I end up with.

Jeremy Ben Ami: The pact that the groups spoke out earlier to say that it did not make any sense, and they're all sorts of reasons why this was not the best course of action, even if they could justify things. This was not the way to do with. The fact that we then got attacked so fiercely, and there was a public conversation about those attacks, I think that is a positive sign. I think in prior years, there has not been that dialogue and debate. The fact we're having the argument.

James Zogby: Let's put the numbers up on the screen. Clearly, there is a strand of thought out in the Jewish community that says we have defined a Pro-peace alternative. There is this clear humanitarian tragedy. They were talking about Hamas using human shields or that there were plenty of supplies and that they were just not using them. Are you getting blowback about the positions you have been taking?

M.J. Rosenberg: I think that the level of discomfort in the Jewish community is a very large, more than I can remember. In New York, a Jewish community, a rally of solidarity with Israel, with Israel, in this war. 8000 people showed up, despite free transportation, all kinds of things, on a Sunday. I think what we are facing in terms of people who are angry at Jeremy and myself for our position, part of it is that they, themselves, are so conflicted. Because they have problems with it morally, they lash out at people like us, who are saying what they think it.

James Zogby: Barack Obama, not on his watch, but it clearly challenges him. How optimistic are you that change will be coming?

Jeremy Ben Ami: I think there will be change coming. That is for sure. After eight years of neglect and mismanagement, that ends Tuesday. The question is Will he truly want to do something transformational and transcendent and really resolve this conflict, and how is he going to approach it? Who are the people he is going to bring in? What is the message to the world, to the international community? I do not know. I think that is a critical thing for him early on, and we are finally going to find out.

James Zogby: Let us go to a caller. Caller, hello.

Caller: Hello.

James Zogby: Your question.

Caller: My question is not a question but an opinion, a new point of view, which is for all of the kids in Israel, for the sake of the safety of the kids in Israel, and for the people in Palestine and Gaza, what do you gain from the war? You gain more hatred. You are destroying the economy for the Palestinians and Gaza, and now, and now we're getting more terrorists. They are dying. What are we going to do?

James Zogby: I thank you for the call. What do you say to that?

M.J. Rosenberg: I agree with it. The human race has just totally not progress. Endless wars in the Middle East, one after another, accomplishing absolutely nothing. The reason I am optimistic about Barack Obama is that he has said consistently that he favors talk and dialogue first, so I think that this policy that we do not talk to this one, we do not talk to about one, that is going to change.

James Zogby: A caller from California. Caller?

Caller: I have been very disappointed with the Jewish leadership in the Senate and the House of representatives. I mean, there are 31 representatives in the House that our Jewish, and there are 13 senators that are Jewish, and none of them have spoken out for humanity. Your guest mentioned that there was a very small turnout at the New York rally in favor of Israel.
However, very present on the dais was Senator Schumer. The Jewish members of our House and Senate are very, very supportive.

James Zogby: Thank you. There were a lot of new members elected. A change a foot in the hill, or not?

Jeremy Ben Ami: I do not think it is reasonable to expect an overnight revolution. The pattern of behavior that certainly affects the Jewish members, but I think it affects the broader members has been in place for 30 or 40 years. We have some new Jewish voices that are going to emerge. There are people that we have endorsed, a terrific new senator from Oregon, people who have been of voices of conscience I think that there are good people, and there is a change coming, but it is not the sort of thing that happens overnight. We are on the way, but I would not promise the changes overnight.

James Zogby: Let's go to Illinois for a call. Caller?

Caller: The coverage in the media, being basically an accomplice to this tragedy. Does this not make Barack Obama's job a lot more difficult? Really, when he takes over, it is going to be a bigger mess than ever.

M.J. Rosenberg: Had this war not occurred, he probably could have dealt with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for one year. he said he would do it the first year. That gives him one year. Now, it is on his back. That is a good thing.

James Zogby: Not by the agenda that they set but how they respond to the agenda that is set for them. We have had a chance to see a little of Barack Obama during the campaign and then during the months before inauguration. What are we learning about him in terms of how he deals with the unexpected? Does he hunker down and turn his back? Or do you think he has got the wherewithal to rise to the challenge here?

Jeremy Ben Ami: In some ways, these are the worst crises that a president has faced, and now we have added one. Does he have that transformational quality? Does he have the ability to be that figure that takes us in a bold, new direction, or is he going to be a very adept CEO, where he will deal with whatever crosses his desk and deal with it well?

James Zogby: It is so skewed that his mere mention of the suffering of civilians came through as a rebuke of George Bush, and then you have Hillary Clinton in somewhat more evocative terms saying somewhat the same and a little bit more in her hearing. Are we getting indication here that his silence was more dissent?

M.J. Rosenberg: He chose to speak out when he agrees with Bush. Like, on Mumbai. He spoke out. He did not say there was one president, and I am not president yet, because he agreed with him.
I think this indicates that he disagrees. I think it is very important for people to understand that this is the first president of the United States ever who had a a Muslim father, Muslims in his family, lived in Indonesia. I think that is bound to make a difference.

James Zogby: Caller? I am going to ask you to limit it to one.

Caller: I have a little question to ask. The first war that happens in Lebanon, the Israelis and the Lebanese people, and it did not work. The strategies that they use, bombing of civilians, and I do not understand how they can justify doing that.

James Zogby: I have to stop you right there, because I get where you are going. Is there a way out? We have got one minute left.

Jeremy Ben Ami: Israel is not going to stay and militarily reoccupy. No international force in its right mind is going to come in, so we know what cannot happen. The question is, will they leave enough political leadership on the ground?

James Zogby: Repeating themselves and really no good coming out of it. A tragedy that repeat and repeat. Thank you, guys, for joining us. I also want to think others for being with us. This has been a horrible week and probably yet another one to come, but we will have an operation on Tuesday, and one hopes and prays for a real change. Lord knows we need it. We hope you join us next week on "Viewpoint." I am James Zogby, saying good-bye.