Dr. James Zogby
Viewpoint Episode and Transcript: 06/21/07
Posted on Friday June 22, 2007
Daniel Fried
Robert Malley
James Zogby: HI. I’M JIM ZOGBY, AND WELCOME TO “VIEWPOINT.” TONIGHT
WE’RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THE CONFLICT IN GAZA AND THE NEWLY-FORMED GOVERNMENT. WE’RE GONNA DO THAT WITH ROB MALLEY OF THE INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP. THEN WE’LL TAKE A LOOK AT THE REFUGEE SITUATION AND THE U.N.’S LATEST REPORT RELEASED
JUST THIS LAST WEEK, AND WE’RE GONNA DO THAT WITH LAVINIA LIMON. SHE’S PRESIDENT OF THE U.S. COMMITTEE FOR REFUGEES AND IMMIGRANTS. BUT FIRST WE’RE GONNA TALK ABOUT KOSOVO. AFTER YEARS OF WAR AND ETHNIC CLEANSING AND NATO INTERVENTION, THE SITUATION IN KOSOVO FINALLY STABILIZED IN 1999. AND FOR THE LAST 8 YEARS, KOSOVO HAS REMAINED A U.N. PROTECTORATE, THOUGH STILL TECHNICALLY A PART OF SERBIA.
IN 2005 THE SECRETARY GENERAL APPOINTED THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF FINLAND, MARTTI AHTISAARI, TO HEAD UP AN EFFORT TO NEGOTIATE FINAL-STATUS ARRANGEMENTS FOR KOSOVO. THIS MARCH THE RECOMMENDATIONS WERE SUBMITTED TO THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL. THE PROPOSAL CALLS FOR SUPERVISED INDEPENDENCE FOR KOSOVO. NOW, THAT’S AN OUTCOME SUPPORTED BY THE U.S. AND THE E.U., BUT IT’S REJECTED BY SERBIA AND RUSSIA. JOINING US TO DISCUSS KOSOVO AND PLANS FOR ITS FUTURE, ITS CURRENT SITUATION, AND WHAT IMPLICATIONS THERE ARE FOR KOSOVO IN THE BROADER REGION, IS DANIEL FRIED. HE’S ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE FOR EUROPEAN AND EURASIAN AFFAIRS. AMBASSADOR FRIED BEGAN HIS CAREER IN THE FOREIGN SERVICE 30 YEARS AGO. HE SERVED AS SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO THE PRESIDENT AND SENIOR DIRECTOR FOR EUROPEAN AND EURASIAN AFFAIRS AT THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL, AND HE’S FORMER AMBASSADOR TO POLAND. AT THE WHITE HOUSE HE WAS ACTIVELY INVOLVED IN U.S. POLICY IN NATO AND EURO-ATLANTIC SECURITY. THANKS FOR JOINING US.
Ambassador Daniel Fried: THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
J.Z.: KOSOVO, WHICH WAS A MAJOR TOPIC IN THE HEADLINES AND A HUGE CONCERN, NOT JUST THE MUSLIM WORLD, BUT REALLY THROUGHOUT THE WESTERN WORLD, TOO, BECAUSE OF WHAT WE SAW TAKING PLACE IN THIS COUNTRY, IS NOW BACK ON THE FRONT BURNER AGAIN AFTER A NUMBER OF YEARS. THE AHTISAARI RECOMMENDATIONS WERE JUST PUT IN THE FORM OF A SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION, JUST NOTED TO ME, AND INTRODUCED YESTERDAY.
NOW, BEFORE I START TALKING ABOUT WHO IS FOR AND AGAINST, AND I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THOSE, EACH OF THEM, IN SEQUENCE. FOR OUR VIEWERS, DESCRIBE THE RECOMMENDATIONS, IN PARTICULAR THIS NOTION OF SUPERVISED INDEPENDENCE.
WHAT EXACTLY DOES IT MEAN?
Fried: WE BELIEVE THAT THE PEOPLE OF KOSOVO, THE MAJORITY ETHNIC ALBANIANS, BUT ALSO THE SERBS IN KOSOVO, NEED CLARITY ABOUT THEIR FUTURE. THEY NEED A FUTURE OF PEACE, THEY NEED A FUTURE OF RECONCILIATION, AND THEY NEED A CHANCE TO GO TO EUROPE TO JOIN A UNITED EUROPE. WE SUPPORT THE AHTISAARI PLAN, THIS PLAN FOR SUPERVISED INDEPENDENCE, BECAUSE WE THINK IT’S THE BEST CHANCE FOR ALL KOSOVARS TO HAVE A GOOD FUTURE. NOW, SUPERVISED INDEPENDENCE MEANS THAT KOSOVO WOULD BE INDEPENDENT. IT WOULD HAVE A GOVERNMENT. IT WOULD HAVE A CONSTITUTION AND ELECTIONS. BUT FOR A PERIOD OF SOME TIME THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY WOULD HELP KOSOVO GET ON ITS FEET AND IMPLEMENT THE AHTISAARI RECOMMENDATIONS, WHICH A LOT OF THEM HAVE TO DO WITH MINORITY RIGHTS PROTECTION. NOW, THE KOSOVARS, THE MAJORITY ALBANIAN GOVERNMENT, HAS ACCEPTED ALL OF THIS. THEY ACCEPT THAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY WILL HELP THEM. THEY’VE ACCEPTED SUPERVISED INDEPENDENCE. THEY SUPPORT UNITED NATIONS ACTIONS. THEY SUPPORT THE CONTINUED PRESENCE OF NATO FORCES FOR SECURITY, THE E.U. TO HELP WITH CIVILIAN ADMINISTRATION, AND A POLICING MISSION. SO WE THINK THIS IS A PLAN THAT’S WORKABLE. IT HAS THE SUPPORT OF THEIR GOVERNMENT, AND WE WANT TO MOVE AHEAD FOR THE SAKE OF ALL THE PEOPLE THERE.
J.Z.: NOW, SUPERVISED SPECIFICALLY MEANS PROTECTION FOR THE SERB ETHNIC MINORITY, ABOUT 10% OF THE POPULATION, AND HOLY PLACES THAT ARE OF CONCERN TO SERBS BEYOND KOSOVO. THAT IS, A BIG ISSUE DURING THE REBELLION IN KOSOVO HAD TO DO WITH THIS HISTORIC ROLE THAT SOME OF THESE SITES IN KOSOVO PLAYED FOR SERBS AND THE SERBIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH UNIVERSALLY. WHAT ARE THE KINDS OF PROTECTIONS OFFERED HERE THAT MAKE A SUPERVISED INDEPENDENCE?
Fried: WELL, YOU’RE RIGHT.
J.Z.: WILL THERE BE PHYSICAL PROTECTION FOR THE SITES?
Fried: YES. NATO WITH—AND AGAIN, THE KOSOVARS HAVE AGREED TO THIS. NATO WOULD REMAIN. THERE ARE ABOUT 15,000 NATO TROOPS, 1,500 AMERICAN. ONE OF THEIR DUTIES IS TO PROTECT THE HOLY SITES, THE SERBIAN ORTHODOX MONASTERIES. THE OTHER IS TO KEEP THE PEACE IN SUPPORT OF THE LOCAL POLICE THAT HAVE BEEN SET UP. AND THERE WOULD BE AN INTERNATIONAL CIVILIAN OFFICE, A PRESENCE, WORKING WITH THE KOSOVO GOVERNMENT.
J.Z.: WHAT DO THE SERBS WANT THAT MAKES THIS PLAN UNACCEPTABLE TO THEM?
Fried: WELL, IT DEPENDS ON WHICH SERBS YOU TALK TO.
J.Z.: I READ ONE SPECIFIC PAPER BY A SERB ANALYST WHO WAS SAYING THAT THE AREA OF KOSOVO SHOULD BE PARTITIONED WITH THE SERBIAN PORTION REVERTING TO SERBIA, ET
CETERA.
Fried: WELL, THE TROUBLE IS THAT THERE’S NO CLEAN ETHIC-BASED PARTITION THAT’S POSSIBLE. IT’S TRUE THAT A LOT OF SERBS IN THE NORTH AROUND THE MITROVICA AREA, BUT OVER HALF, ABOUT 60% OF THE KOSOVO SERBS LIVE IN THE SOUTH IN SCATTERED COMMUNITIES. THERE IS NO WAY TO PARTITION IT. THESE PEOPLE IN THE SOUTH WOULD BE VERY VULNERABLE.
J.Z.: CAN SERBIA BLOCK IT?
Fried: NO. NOT REALLY.
J.Z.: RUSSIA HAS OPPOSED—AND WHAT TROUBLES RUSSIA MOST? IS IT THE INDEPENDENCE OF KOSOVO AND THEREFORE THE RELATIONS THAT RUSSIA HAS WITH THE SLAVIC PEOPLE IN SERBIA? OR IS IT THE NOTION OF KOSOVO AND SERBIA JOINING THE E.U.? ON A SCALE, WHAT TROUBLES RUSSIA MOST? BOTH, OR…
Fried: THAT’S, I THINK—I THINK THAT WHAT TROUBLES THE RUSSIANS IS THE WHOLE NOTION OF THE BREAK UP OF YUGOSLAVIA, WHICH THEY THINK IS LIKE THE BREAK UP OF THE
SOVIET UNION. AND I THINK THEY ARE VERY BOTHERED BY THE PARALLELS, AND THEY JUST DON’T LIKE THE IDEA OF SERBIA, WITH WHICH THEY IDENTIFY, LOSING SOMETHING OF IMPORTANCE TO IT. AND WHAT WE SAY TO THE RUSSIANS IS, FIRST, SERBIA LOST KOSOVO WHEN MILOSEVIC WENT IN AND DROVE OUT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE. AND SECONDLY, THE SERBS IN KOSOVO WILL BE PROTECTED BEST THROUGH THE AHTISAARI PLAN.
J.Z.: RUSSIANS ARE RAISING THE ISSUE OF A MUSLIM STATE.
Fried: THEY HAVE—SOME RUSSIANS RAISE AN ARGUMENT THAT WE REALLY DON’T HAVE MUCH RESPECT FOR, WHICH IS THAT SOMEHOW KOSOVO WOULD BE A CENTER OF MOSLEM-BASED TERRORISM IN THE MIDDLE OF EUROPE. LET ME EXPLAIN WHY THIS IS JUST NOT TRUE. THERE ARE VERY FEW RADICAL ISLAMISTS IN KOSOVO AT ALL. THIS IS A PEOPLE THAT IS
PRO-AMERICAN, PRO-EUROPEAN. THEY HAVE A VERY TOLERANT VIEW OF THE ROLE OF ISLAM. THESE ARE PEOPLE THAT WANT TO BE EUROPEANS. THEY WANT TO JOIN THE E.U. THIS IS NOT SOME SORT OF TERRORIST HOTBED. THAT’S SCARY TALK.
J.Z.: I WANT TO UP A MAP UP, IF WE COULD, OF THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA AND THE VARIOUS REPUBLICS INVOLVED—IT’S ON THE SCREEN RIGHT NOW. WHAT WE’RE LOOKING AT, AND I WANT TO KEEP LOOKING AT THAT FOR A MOMENT IF WE CAN, IS THE WESTERN PART—SLOVENIA AND CROATIA AND BOSNIA, HERZEGOVINA HAVE SOME INTEREST, ESPECIALLY BOSNIA, BUT NOT AS GREAT AN INTEREST AS MONTENEGRO AND MACEDONIA AND THEN SERBIA ITSELF. SO LOOKING AT THE EASTERN PART OF THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA, LET’S TALK ABOUT EACH GROUPING IF WE COULD. FIRST MACEDONIA, WHICH HAS ITS OWN ALBANIAN-MUSLIM POPULATION, ABOUT ALMOST A QUARTER OF THE POPULATION THERE. HOW WILL THEY BE AFFECTED EITHER BY THE INDEPENDENCE OR THE LACK THEREOF OF KOSOVO?
Fried: GOOD QUESTION.
J.Z.: BECAUSE A BIG ISSUE HERE IS THE QUESTION OF DOES THIS CREATE STABILITY OR INSTABILITY?
Fried: THAT’S A VERY GOOD QUESTION. IN FACT, THE MACEDONIANS, BOTH THE SLAVIC MAJORITY, BUT ALSO THE ETHNIC ALBANIAN MINORITY BOTH SUPPORT KOSOVO’S INDEPENDENCE. THEY THINK THAT THEY’LL BE MORE STABLE IF KOSOVO IS INDEPENDENT,
IN AN ORDERLY WAY UNDER THE AHTISAARI PLAN.
J.Z.: MONTENEGRO, WHICH HAS A SMALLER ALBANIAN MINORITY POPULATION.
Fried: VERY SMALL, AND THE MONTENEGRANS ARE VERY CLOSELY RELATED TO THE SERBS. THEY ALSO SUPPORT THE AHTISAARI PLAN. THEY’VE SAID SO.
J.Z.: ALBANIA ITSELF. NOW, GEORGE BUSH HAS BEEN VERY STRONG ON THE QUESTION OF KOSOVO, SUPPORTING ITS INDEPENDENCE, AND HE GOT A HERO’S WELCOME.
Fried: HE SURE DID. I WAS THERE WITH HIM.
J.Z.: PROBABLY A WELCOME RELIEF AFTER SOME OF THE VISITS THAT HE’S HAD IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD.
Fried: WELL, IT WAS A NICE TRIP, I CAN TELL YOU.
J.Z.: BUT IN ALBANIA, HE WAS GREETED QUITE POSITIVELY. HOW DOES ALBANIA FEEL? AND IS THERE ANY CONCERN ABOUT KOSOVO BEING ABLE TO MAINTAIN INDEPENDENCE OVER AND AGAINST ALBANIA? WILL THERE BE ANY TALK OF THEM COMING TOGETHER IN ANY FORM?
Fried: THE ONLY TALK I’VE HEARD ABOUT A GREATER ALBANIA HAS BEEN FROM PEOPLE OTHER THAN ALBANIANS OR KOSOVARS. THE ALBANIANS SUPPORT KOSOVO INDEPENDENCE. I’VE NEVER HEARD ANY ALBANIAN POLITICIAN SUGGEST ANY DESIRE TO ANNEX OR TAKE OVER KOSOVO. I’VE NEVER HEARD A KOSOVAR ALBANIAN EVER, NOT EVER SAY THAT HE LOOKS FORWARD TO UNION WITH ALBANIA. THERE ARE PROBABLY SOME EXTREMISTS OUT THERE, THERE ALWAYS ARE IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD, BUT THEY’RE NOT IN GOVERNMENT.
J.Z.: RUSSIA CAN VETO. THIS HAS TO BE PASSED BY THE SECURITY COUNCIL BECAUSE IT’S A U.N. PROTECTORATE, IN EFFECT. THE U.N. IS GOING TO DETERMINE THE FATE HERE. IF RUSSIA VETOES OR DELAYS THIS TO THE POINT WHERE THE SITUATION BECOMES RESTIVE, WHAT WOULD THE CONSEQUENCES OF A RUSSIAN VETO OR PROLONGED DELAY OF RESOLUTION OF THIS SITUATION BE?
Fried: THIS IS A PROBLEM THAT WILL NOT IMPROVE WITH AGE OR NEGLECT. THE STATUS QUO IS NOT STABLE. IT WON’T HOLD. WE HAVE TO MOVE AHEAD. WE HOPE THAT THE RUSSIANS DON’T VETO. WE HOPE THAT WE’RE ABLE TO WORK SOMETHING OUT, BUT WE HAVE TO MOVE FORWARD. PRESIDENT BUSH SAID VERY CLEARLY IN ALBANIA WE NEED TO MOVE FORWARD WITH KOSOVO
INDEPENDENCE, AND WE NEED TO FIND A WAY.
J.Z.: LET’S GET YOU OUT THERE INTO THE CONVERSATION. IF YOU’RE CALLING FROM OVERSEAS, THE NUMBER IS 001-202-842-5056 IF YOU’RE CALLING FROM THE U.S. IT’S 202—SORRY, 1-800-528-2090. NUMBERS ARE UP ON THE SCREEN. GIVE US A CALL AND JOIN THE CONVERSATION ABOUT KOSOVO, WHICH IS GOING TO BE IN THE HEADLINES AGAIN, AND HOPEFULLY IN A POSITIVE WAY TO RESOLVE IT.
Fried: WE HOPE SO.
J.Z.: I WANT TO MOVE TO A COUPLE OTHER PLACES AND GET BACK TO THIS IF WE CAN.
TURKEY. THERE’S BEEN GREAT CONCERN IN TURKEY ABOUT THE ISSUE IN IRAQ, AND I KNOW THAT IT’S A BIT FAR AFIELD IN TERMS OF YOUR MANDATE, BUT YOU—
Fried: NO, NO. I WORK ON THAT ISSUE, TOO.
J.Z.: SO IF WE COULD FOR JUST A MOMENT—WHAT ARE THE DANGERS OF A TURKISH INTERVENTION INTO NORTHERN—I KNOW WHAT THE DANGERS ARE. WHAT ARE THE PROSPECTS OF THAT? THERE WERE REPORTS JUST A COUPLE WEEKS AGO THAT TURKISH TROOPS CROSSED THE BORDER. TURNED OUT NOT TO BE AS MASSIVE AS—THERE MAY HAVE BEEN SOME INCURSIONS, BUT NOTHING ON THE SORT THAT WAS TALKED ABOUT. THERE WAS RECENTLY SOME UNREST IN THE TURKISH PRESS. I SAW, I THINK IT WAS TODAY OR MAYBE
YESTERDAY, BECAUSE THERE HAD BEEN A SIMULATED SORT OF MILITARY DISCUSSION, PLANNING DISCUSSION AT ONE OF THE THINK-TANKS HERE IN WASHINGTON THAT HAD SOME PRETTY DIFFICULT SCENARIOS PLAY OUT IN TERMS OF INTERNAL TURKISH POLITICS. WHERE ARE THE TURKS RIGHT NOW IN TERMS OF THEIR RELATIONSHIP TO THE UNITED STATES, IN TERMS OF THEIR RELATIONSHIP TO WHAT’S GOING ON IN IRAQ, AND WHAT ABOUT THE PROSPECTS? IS THERE THE DANGER OF A TURKISH INTERVENTION?
Fried: THE TURKS ARE FRUSTRATED BY THE TERRORISM THAT COMES OUT OF NORTHERN IRAQ AND HITS THEM. THIS IS THE P.K.K.—THE KURDISH TERRORIST GROUP THAT HAS BEEN ACTIVE IN TURKEY FOR YEARS AND THER’S BEEN AN UP-TICK IN ITS ACTIVITY, AND THE TURKS ARE BEING HIT. THEY’RE FRUSTRATED, THEY’RE ANGRY, AND TO CONSIDERABLE
DEGREE WE UNDERSTAND THAT. WE DON’T THINK THAT CROSS-BORDER ACTIONS ARE GOING TO HELP. WE WANT TO WORK WITH THE TURKS AND WITH THE IRAQIS, WITH THE LEGITIMATE KURDISH AUTHORITIES, AGAINST THE P.K.K. BUT HEY, THE TURKS ARE FRUSTRATED, AND WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT. WE WANT TO WORK TO FIGHT THE P.K.K. PROBLEM.
J.Z.: LET’S GO TO TEXAS FOR OUR FIRST CALL. CALLER? HELLO? YES, YOUR CALL?
Caller: YEAH, I WAS CURIOUS. I NOTICE THAT GEORGE BUSH WAS MET WITH, YOU KNOW, GREAT APPLAUSE IN ALBANIA, AND THE GUEST JUST SAID THAT THERE ARE INTERESTS WHO WANT TO RECOMBINE COUNTRIES BACK TOGETHER, BUT THE PEOPLE OF THE COUNTRIES
GENERALLY ARE DISINTERESTED. WHAT I WANTED TO ASK IS WHAT ARE THEIR NATURAL RESOURCE HOLDINGS—MINERAL, OIL AND THESE THINGS—BECAUSE I FOUND THAT THESE GENERALLY ARE MORE OF THE MOTIVATION FOR OUR GOVERNMENT’S INTEREST THAN THE PEOPLE’S WELL-BEING.
J.Z.: COULD I ASK THE QUESTION THIS WAY?
Caller: YES.
J.Z.: HOW SUSTAINABLE ARE EACH OF THESE ETHNIC MINORITY REPUBLICS, OR ETHNIC—
WHAT NOW BECOME ETHNIC MAJORITY REPUBLICS IN THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA?
Fried: SURE. KOSOVO - TO ANSWER THE CALLER, KOSOVO HAS SOME MINERALS, MINERAL RESOURCES, COAL, ESPECIALLY IN THE NORTH. ITS ECONOMY, IF IT WERE AN INDEPENDENT COUNTRY, WOULD BE TROUBLED. IT WOULD NEED SOME HELP FROM THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY. BUT ESPECIALLY AS IT MOVES CLOSER TO THE E.U., WE THINK IT COULD MAKE A GO OF INDEPENDENCE, ESPECIALLY WITH INTERNATIONAL HELP. ALBANIA WAS EUROPE’S POOREST COUNTRY-VERY ISOLATED FOR A LONG TIME. BUT I HADN’T BEEN THERE IN A
NUMBER OF YEARS. I WAS THERE WITH THE PRESIDENT, AND I HAVE TO TELL YOU, THE
PLACE LOOKS PRETTY GOOD COMPARED TO WHERE IT WAS. A LOT OF MONEY COMING IN;
A LOT OF ECONOMIC ACTIVITY. SO THERE IS SOME HOPE FOR THESE COUNTRIES, IF THERE IS PEACE, THAT THEY CAN MOVE AHEAD.
J.Z.: LET’S GO TO U.K. FOR A CALL. CALLER?
Caller: OH, HELLO THERE. MY QUESTION IS, A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE MUSLIM WORLD THOUGH THAT THEY WELCOME THE INDEPENDENCE OF KOSOVO, THEY JUST HAVE A BIT OF
UNEASINESS ABOUT WHY KOSOVO AND NOT BOSNIA? THE DAYTON AGREEMENT IN BOSNIA
IS NOT REALLY WORKING, AND THE STATUS QUO IS NOT REALLY STABLE THERE, AND THERE IS A LOT OF ATTENTION BETWEEN THE SERB, ETHIC SERB AND ETHNIC MUSLIM, BUT THE
EUROPEAN AND THE U.S.A. ARE RELUCTANT TO INTERFERE OR TRYING TO MAKE THINGS WORK THERE, BUT THEY ARE WORKING HARD TO HELP THE KOSOVAN. THANK YOU.
J.Z.: VERY GOOD. THANK YOU.
Fried: WELL, I’VE BEEN IN BOSNIA RECENTLY, AND BOSNIA IS INDEPENDENT. WE SUPPORTED THE CREATION OF THE BOSNIAN, THE DAYTON ACCORDS, WHICH MADE BOSNIA INDEPENDENT. NOW, BOSNIA IS A COLLECTION OF THREE MAJOR ETHNIC GROUPS.
THE BOSNIAKS, WHO ARE MOSLEMS, THE SERBS, AND THE CROATS. THEY WORK TOGETHER NOT TERRIBLY WELL. IT’S NOT A VERY FUNCTIONAL PLACE. AND WHAT WE SUPPORT IS CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM TO MAKE BOSNIA WORK BETTER. WE HAVE BEEN ACTIVE IN THAT IN
TRYING TO BRING THE COMMUNITIES TOGETHER TO MAKE THAT COUNTRY WORK BETTER, BUT WE SUPPORT BOSNIA.
J.Z.: DAYTON ACCORDS HOLDING, OR NOT?
Fried: THEY’RE HOLDING. THEY’RE NOT HOLDING - THEY’RE NOT PERFECT. THEY WERE THE BEST WE COULD GET AT THE TIME. DICK HOLBROOK DID A WONDERFUL JOB STOPPING THAT WAR, NEGOTIATING THOSE ACCORDS. THEY’RE DOING ALL RIGHT, BUT THEY NEED TO BE MODIFIED. THEY NEED TO BE BUILT ON SO THAT BOSNIA WORKS BETTER. AND THAT’S WHAT WE’RE TRYING TO DO.
J.Z.: LET’S GO TO FLORIDA FOR A CALL. CALLER?
Caller: YEAH, HI. I WAS BORN IN THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA, AND I KNOW ALL ABOUT
KOSOVO. AND WHAT AMERICANS – WHAT DO THEY HAVE A-WHAT RIGHT DO THEY HAVE TO GO
INTO KOSOVO AND DECIDE OTHER PEOPLE’S FUTURE? WHY DON’T THEY LET KOSOVARS—
SERBIAN DECIDE WHAT THEY WANT TO DO? WHY DON’T THEY JUST GO HOME AND LEAVE PEOPLE ALONE?
J.Z.: THANK YOU.
Caller: NOW THERE’S A QUESTION OF -
J.Z. LISTEN. NO. THANKS, I GOT THE CALL AND I GOT THE QUESTION. VERY GOOD ONE.
Fried: WELL, THAT’S A FAIR QUESTION, AND THE ANSWER IS WE GOT INVOLVED IN
THE BREAK UP OF FORMER YUGOSLAVIA BECAUSE THERE WAS CIVIL WAR. WE TRIED TO STAY OUT OF IT, BUT IN THE FACE OF SO MUCH KILLING, ETHNIC CLEANSING, MASS MURDER, WE COULD NOT STAND ASIDE. THAT’S HOW WE GOT IN. WE GOT IN TO KOSOVO WHEN THE SERB MILITARY STARTED A MASSIVE ETHNIC CLEANSING AGAINST THE ALBANIANS, AND WE WENT IN TO REVERSE IT, AND WE SUCCEEDED. IF WE HADN’T GONE IN, THERE WOULD BE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF REFUGEES NOW WHO GOT TO RETURN TO THEIR HOMES. SO,
I’M GLAD WE DID WHAT WE DID, AND NOW WE’RE TRYING TO PICK UP THE PIECES AND HELP THESE PEOPLE GET ON WITH THEIR LIVES.
J.Z.: LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION. AND YOU MIGHT DISAGREE WITH THE PREMISE, BUT I WANT TO SORT OF GET IT OUT.
Fried: SURE.
J.Z.: BECAUSE I’VE HEARD THIS REFERRED TO A NUMBER OF OCCASIONS. THE BREAK UP OF THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA BROUGHT TO AN END A SYSTEM THAT, DESPITE REPRESSION,
PRODUCED THE WINTER OLYMPICS IN SARAJEVO.
Fried: I WAS THERE.
J.Z.: WHERE PEOPLE WENT AND SAW A COEXISTENCE AND A SOCIETY THAT SEEMED TO BE WORKING, AND WHEN TITO DIED, THE WORLD FELL APART AND YOU HAD THIS UNLEASHING OF
HORRIFIC ETHNIC VIOLENCE AND TENSION. SOME HAVE EQUATED THAT TO THE SITUATION IN IRAQ. NOW CLEARLY THE SADDAM REGIME-AS REPRESSIVE AS TITO MIGHT HAVE BEEN, SADDAM DEFINES A WHOLE NEW LEVEL OF REPRESSION, BUT NEVERTHELESS, THE REGIME IS GONE AND TENSIONS THAT WERE UNDER THE SURFACE BEGIN TO EMERGE.
ARE THERE LESSONS, EVEN DANGEROUS LESSONS, FOR IRAQ IN
WHAT HAPPENED IN
YUGOSLAVIA IN TERMS OF THE BREAK UP OF THE SOCIETY?
Fried: WELL, LOOK, IT’S A FAIR QUESTION BECAUSE THESE WERE ALL PARTS OF THE FORMER OTTOMAN EMPIRE AND, YOU KNOW, HERE IT IS A HUNDRED YEARS LATER WE’RE STILL DEALING WITH THESE THINGS. ONE OF THE LESSONS THOUGH IS YOU HAVE
TO BE CAREFUL IN THINKING YOU CAN DIVIDE A COUNTRY EASILY. I THOUGHT THE BREAK UP OF YUGOSLAVIA WAS A TERRIBLE THING. IT WAS A TRAGEDY. AND YUGOSLAVIA JUST DIDN’T BREAK UP, IT WAS MURDERED. IT WAS MURDERED BY A BUNCH OF NATIONALISTS.
AND PEOPLE WHO TALK, AND THERE ARE SOME, WHO TALK ABOUT DIVIDING IRAQ AND PARTITIONING IT FORGET THAT IT’S EASIER TO SAY THAT WHEN YOU’RE ON TV OR YOU HAVE A MAP IN YOUR LIVING ROOM OR YOUR OFFICE, AND TO ACTUALLY DO IT IS
TO RISK SOME HORRIFIC BLOODLETTING. AND AS BAD AS IT IS IN IRAQ, AND IT IS BAD, IT COULD GET WORSE. SO I’M VERY CAREFUL ABOUT SUGGESTIONS THAT WE JUST DIVIDE UP COUNTRIES. WHAT’S HAPPENED IN KOSOVO IS A TRAGEDY, AND I WISH WE DIDN’T
HAVE TO FACE THESE ISSUES, BUT WE DO.
J.Z.: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, AND I WANT TO HAVE YOU COME BACK AS THIS ISSUE MOVES FORWARD. THANK YOU SO MUCH. WE’RE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK WHEN
WE RETURN AT GAZA, THE SITUATION THERE AND WHAT’S UNFOLDING IN THE ENTIRE
PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES. STAY TUNED.
WELCOME BACK TO “VIEWPOINT.” I’M JIM ZOGBY. AND MY NEXT GUEST IS ROBERT MALLEY, MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA PROGRAM DIRECTOR FOR THE INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP. ROB SERVED AS SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT CLINTON FOR ARAB-ISRAELI AFFAIRS AND ON THE STAFF OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL. THANKS FOR JOINING US, ROB.
Rob Malley, International Crisis Group: THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
J.Z.: LOOK, I WANT TO START IF I CAN THIS WAY, TAKE A COUPLE OF QUOTES FROM GEORGE BUSH YESTERDAY MEETING WITH OLMERT AT THE WHITE HOUSE AND SOME COMMENTS HE MADE ABOUT PRESIDENT ABBAS. LET’S TAKE A LOOK.
President Bush: HE IS THE PRESIDENT OF ALL THE PALESTINIANS. HE IS A REASONABLE VOICE AMONGST THE EXTREMISTS IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD. OOUR HOPE IS THAT PRESIDENT ABBAS AND THE PRIME MINISTER FAYAD, WHO’S A GOOD FELLOW, WILL BE STRENGTHENED TO THE POINT WHERE THEY CAN LEAD THE PALESTINIANS IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION WITH A
DIFFERENT HOPE.
J.Z.: I WANT TO NOW PUT UP ON THE SCREEN, IF I COULD, A QUOTE FROM YOU AND AARON MILLER IN “THE WASHINGTON POST”, AN OP-ED YOU DID JUST A COUPLE DAYS AGO AFTER
THE VIOLENCE SETTLED IN GAZA. LET’S TAKE A LOOK AT THE QUOTE:
“SINCE HAMAS’S ELECTORAL VICTORY, U.S. POLICY HAS HELPED STRENGTHEN RADICAL FORCES, DEBILITATE PALESTINIAN INSTITUTIONS, UNDERMINE FAITH IN DEMOCRACY, WEAKEN ABBAS AND SET BACK THE PEACE PROCESS. WHY ASK FOR MORE OF THE SAME?”
BY SOME IN THIS ADMINISTRATION THAT THIS IS A SILVER LINING AND WE HAVE TO STRENGTHEN THE ONE SIDE, WEAKEN THE OTHER SIDE IS A COUNTERPRODUCTIVE STRATEGY.
DESCRIBE TO ME, IF YOU WOULD, WHY AT THIS POINT, DOING EVERYTHING WE CAN TO HELP
MAHMOUD ABBAS AND THE PALESTINIANS IN THE WEST BANK SUCCEED, WHY THAT BECOMES A
COUNTERPRODUCTIVE STRATEGY.
Malley: BECAUSE HELPING ABBAS IS SOMETHING THAT I HAVE CALLED FOR FOR A LONG TIME, AND I WISH WE’D DONE IT BACK IN 2005 WHEN WE ACTUALLY HAD A GREAT OPPORTUNITY TO DO SOMETHING. AND I’M NOT AGAINST IT—IT’S HELPING, IT’S MOVING THE WEST BANK, BUT LET’S HAVE OUR EYES OPEN ABOUT THIS AND ABOUT WHAT’S
HAPPENED OVER THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF. IF WE DON’T LEARN LESSONS ABOUT THAT, THEN WE REALLY ARE FOOLISH. IF WE NOW SAY WE’RE GOING TO ISOLATE AND MARGINALIZE HAMAS AND WE’RE GONNA BUILD ABBAS WITH MONEY AND WEAPONS AND A POLITICAL PROCESS, HOW LONG IS IT BEFORE THE SAME FORCES THAT WILL FEEL MARGINALIZED AMONG HAMAS AND HAS FELT THAT WAY AMONG THE PAST, WILL BEGIN LOBBING MISSILES AT ISRAEL, CREATING INSTABILITY IN THE WEST BANK? IT WON’T BE LONG. PLUS THERE IS NO WAY FOR ABBAS, WHO WANTS TO BE A CREDIBLE NATIONAL LEADER, TO DO SO IF HE’S VIEWED BY HIS OWN PEOPLE AS SACRIFICING, GEOGRAPHICALLY, GAZA AND POLITICALLY, HIS CONSTITUENCY OR THE CONSTITUENCY THAT IS CLOSE TO HAMAS. HE CAN PLAY THAT ROLE, AND EVERY TIME PRESIDENT BUSH SPEAKS ABOUT HIM IN THE WAY HE DOES, HE’S DOINGMORE TO HURT HIM THAN ANYTHING ELSE. IT’S NOT GOOD FOR ABBAS TO BE VIEWED THAT WAY EVEN THOUGH ABBAS HIMSELF HAD VERY, VERY HARSH WORDS TO SAY ABOUT HAMAS YESTERDAY FOR SOME UNDERSTANDABLE REASONS. I SUSPECT SOONER OR LATER HE KNOWS HE CAN’T HAVE SECURITY, STABILITY, A PEACE PROCESS IF HE’S NOT A CONSENSUAL LEADER VIEWED AS LEGITIMATE BY ALL PALESTINE.
J.Z.: SO EGYPT AND JORDAN ARE HOSTING A SUMMIT. THEY’VE INVITED OLMERT AND ABBAS TO THE SUMMIT. IS THAT A PRODUCTIVE OR COUNTERPRODUCTIVE EVENT?
Malley: I’M NOT SURE. I’M NOT SURE WHAT THIS MEETING IS GOING TO BE ABOUT, WHAT
IT’S GOING TO DO. AGAIN, SO MUCH OF THIS HAS TO DO WITH WHAT FRAME OF MIND YOU GET INTO IT. IF IT’S TO PROMOTE THE PEACE PROCESS, AND THAT’S YOUR PRIORITY, THEN THERE’S A WAY TO DO IT. IF IT’S TO ISOLATE AND CRUSH HAMAS, THEN YOU
WON’T BE ABLE TO CRUSH HAMAS AND YOU WON’T HAVE A PEACE PROCESS BECAUSE THAT REALLY IS THE LESSON. IF YOU DON’T HAVE AN INCLUSIVE PROCESS IN WHICH AN ORGANIZATION LIKE HAMAS, THAT IS REPRESENTATIVE OF AT LEAST A LARGE NUMBER OF PALESTINIANS, THEN WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN? EVEN IF ABBAS REACHES AGREEMENTS WITH OLMERT, HE WON’T BE ABLE TO DELIVER IF YOU DON’T HAVE THE
FOUNDATION, AND THE FOUNDATION IS MINIMAL PALESTINIAN CONSENSUS.
J.Z.: THERE’S A STORY IN TODAY’S “LOS ANGELES TIMES” ABOUT VIOLENCE NOW
WITH GUNMEN, IT SAID, ON THE RAMPAGE IN THE WEST BANK—A CERTAIN DEGREE
OF LAWLESSNESS DEVELOPING WITH ELEMENTS OUT OF CONTROL OF EVEN THE NEW GOVERNMENT, AL-AQSA BRIGADE AND OTHERS TAKING VENGEANCE AGAINST HAMAS, DRIVING
OUT ELECTED MAYORS, ET CETERA, FROM THEIR OFFICES. CAN YOU HAVE A REVERSE IN THE
WEST BANK OF WHAT YOU HAD IN GAZA?
J.Z.: IT WAS INTERESTING YESTERDAY, THE ISRAELI JETS STRUCK GAZA, AND A NUMBER OF HAMAS OPERATIVES WERE KILLED, I THINK 4 WAS THE NUMBER, AND THEN THERE WERE ROCKETS FIRED FROM GAZA INTO ISRAEL. AND THE GROUPS THAT CLAIMED CREDIT WERE THE AL-AQSA BRIGADE AND ISLAMIC JIHAD. IT APPEARS THAT THIS HAS BEEN A PATTERN OF GROUPS PLAYING OFF AGAINST EACH OTHER TO UNDERCUT EACH OTHER IN THIS REGARD. I POSIT THE FOLLOWING TO YOU. WILL HAMAS BE IN THE POSITION OF FATAH, 1996?
WILL THEY START CRACKING DOWN IF THEY FIND THAT THESE ROCKETS ARE UNDERCUTTING THEIR LEGITIMACY IN GAZA?
Malley: BIG QUESTION. BIG CHALLENGE FOR THEM. FRANKLY, I THINK THE BEST THEY
COULD DO NOW WOULD BE TO REALLY RESTORE LAW AND ORDER IN GAZA, AT LEAST
HAVE A UNILATERAL CEASE-FIRE FOR SOME TIME TO SEND THE MESSAGE TO ISRAEL AND THE OUTSIDE WORLD THAT THEY CAN DELIVER, SO THAT OTHERS ARE FORCED THEN TO ACKNOWLEDGE THEM. FRANKLY, I DON’T KNOW THAT THAT’S WHAT THEY WANT TO DO. I’M
NOT SURE IT’S WHAT THEY CAN DO BECAUSE THEY WOULD HAVE TO CRACK DOWN ON PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING PRECISELY, AS YOU SAY, WHAT THEY WERE DOING NOT SO LONG AGO. BUT THAT’S THE ONLY WAY THEY’RE BACK IN THE GAME IS IF THEY CAN SHOW THEY CAN RELEASE ALAN JOHNSTON, THE BBC JOURNALIST, THEY COULD RESTORE LAW AND ORDER, THEY COULD CONFISCATE GUNS, AND THEY COULD STOP THE LOBBING OF MISSILES.
J.Z.: GIVEN THE FACT THAT PRESIDENT ABBAS IS A GOOD MAN AND SALIM FAYAD IS AS WELL A GOOD MAN, HOW DO WE HELP THEM IF OUR GOAL IS TO HELP AND STRENGTHEN MODERATE LEADERSHIP? WHAT IS THE BEST THAT WE CAN DO, AND ARE WE DOING IT?
Malley: NO. I THINK WE’RE NOT DOING IT BECAUSE WE’RE PUTTING THEM IN THIS POSITION WHERE THEY’RE GOING TO BE VIEWED - AND AT THIS POINT IT’S UNDERSTANDABLE, BUT OVER TIME IT WON’T BE- THEY’RE BEING VIEWED AS ALLIED
IN AN ATTEMPT TO REALLY MARGINALIZE AND CRUSH HAMAS. I THINK ABBAS AND FAYAD HAVE THIS IN COMMON, WHICH IS THEY HAVE UP UNTIL NOW MANAGED TO—ALTHOUGH THEY ARE CLEARLY IDENTIFIED WITH ONE SIDE—THEY’VE MAINTAINED LINKS TO HAMAS.
J.Z.: IT’S INTERESTING. WHEN WE POLLED SALIM FAYAD BACK IN THE ELECTION—GRANTED HE ONLY GOT A FEW VOTES—WE ASKED WHO HIS VOTERS WERE. AND HIS VOTERS CAME FOR ACROSS THE SPECTRUM. HE IS NOT IDENTIFIED—HE HAD HAMAS SUPPORTERS, HE HAD ISLAMIC JIHAD SUPPORTERS, HE HAD FATAH AND INDEPENDENT SUPPORTERS. SALIM FAYAD
HE IS NOT VIEWED AS A POLITICAL PARTISAN IN ANY WAY.
Malley: AND THE POINT IS, DON’T PUT EITHER FAYAD OR ABBAS IN A POSITION WHERE THEY HAVE TO CHOOSE. EITHER THEY GET ALL THIS PROGRESS IN THE WEST BANK, WHICH MAY TURN OUT TO BE AN ILLUSION, OR THEY GO AND TRY TO RECONCILE WITH HAMAS.
THEY CAN’T DO BOTH. I THINK THEY WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, WE THE UNITED STATES, THAT ULTIMATELY FOR THE PEACE PROCESS TO SUCCEED, YOU’RE GOING TO HAVE
TO HAVE SOME KIND OF NEW RECONCILIATION, POWER-SHARING AGREEMENT, BETWEEN FATAH AND HAMAS. AND PEOPLE LIKE PRESIDENT ABBAS, PEOPLE LIKE PRIME MINISTER FAYAD AT SOME POINT WILL HAVE TO PLAY A ROLE OF A BRIDGE BACK INTO SOME FORM OF NORMALCY.
J.Z.: LET’S GET YOU OUT THERE IN THE CONVERSATION. IF YOU’RE CALLING FROM OVERSEAS, IT’S 001-202-842-5056. IF YOU’RE CALLING FROM THE U.S., IT’S 1-800-528-2090. YOU MET WITH SECRETARY RICE LAST WEEK, AND WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THIS.
BEFORE IT STARTED, THE QUESTION WAS WHAT ARE WE DOING AND WHAT CAN WE DO TO STRENGTHEN PRESIDENT ABBAS? THE REFRAIN COMING FROM THE ADMINISTRATION IS HE’S GOT TO DO MORE TO CRACK DOWN, AND HAMAS KNOWS WHAT ITS CONDITIONS ARE AND THEY GOT TO MEET THEM. WHEN I RESPONDED—BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THE U.S. CAN DO TO HELP WOULD BE TO MAKE IT REALLY CLEAR TO THE ISRAELIS THAT THE CHECKPOINTS GOT TO GO, THAT THE WALL’S GOT TO STOP, THAT THE SETTLEMENTS HAVE TO STOPPED BEING
EXPANDED, THAT COMMERCE HAS TO ALLOWED TO MOVE FREELY IN THE WEST BANK AND GAZA, ET CETERA, AND THE RESPONSE BACK WAS, “HE’S GOT TO DO MORE AND HAMAS KNOWS
WHAT THE CONDITIONS ARE.” CAN THIS ADMINISTRATION, AS IT IS CONSTITUTIONALLY SET UP, ARE THEY ABLE TO PUT SOME PRESSURE ON ISRAEL, TO DO THE THINGS THAT WOULD ACTUALLY REALLY HELP MAHMOUD ABBAS?
Malley: I WOULD PUT THE QUESTION DIFFERENTLY. ARE THEY ABLE TO CHANGE THEIR
MINDSET NOW ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO MOVE THIS FORWARD? THEY MAY PUT PRESSURE ON ISRAEL, BUT ARE THEY GOING TO CHANGE, AS YOU SAY, SORT OF, THEIR DISKETTE, AND
THINK ABOUT THIS DIFFERENTLY AND NOT THINK THAT THE WAY FORWARD IS TO ISOLATE AND CRUSH ONE ORGANIZATION AND THEN MOVE THE OTHER ONE AND TO HAVE ALL THESE
CONDITIONS, WHICH FRANKLY AS YOU AND I KNOW, ARE NEVER MET THAT WAY. WE CAN TELL SYRIA, IRAN, HAMAS, ISRAEL, HERE ARE THE CONDITIONS YOU HAVE TO MEET AND YOU KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF YOU MEET THEM. IT NEVER WORKS, AND IT STILL WON’T IN THE FUTURE.
J.Z.: ONE OF THE THINGS—AND WE’RE WAITING FOR YOUR CALLS. THE NUMBERS ARE UP ON THE SCREEN. GIVE US A CALL. I’LL GET TO THOSE WHO ARE HOLDING IN JUST A MOMENT, BUT ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS THAT OCCURRED TO ME THE OTHER DAY IN CONVERSATION WITH A NUMBER OF PALESTINIANS HERE AND THERE WAS THAT THEY WOULD REFER TO THE PALESTINIAN COMMUNITY BEING DIVIDED BETWEEN GAZA AND THE WEST BANK 60%-40%. IS MAHMOUD ABBAS THE REPRESENTATIVE OF ALL PALESTINIANS OR JUST PART?
HAMAS NOW CONTROLS THIS PART OF PALESTINIANS BUT NOT THE—AND IN THE MIDDLE OF IT ALL A THOUGHT CAME TO ME THAT THE LOCUS OF PALESTINIAN POLITICAL DISCOURSE
IS FOCUSED ON THE WEST BANK AND GAZA, WHEREAS 20 YEARS AGO IT WAS ON THE PALESTINIAN COMMUNITY OUTSIDE WHO NOW SEEM TO HAVE LITERALLY EVAPORATED.
THE DIASPORA OF THE PALESTINIAN COMMUNITY IS NO LONGER A PART OF THIS POLITICAL DISCUSSION.
Malley: I THINK THAT’S WORTH WATCHING BECAUSE I’M NOT SURE HOW LONG THAT WILL BE. THE MORE—IF THE WEST BANK AND GAZA TURN INTO BEING THIS DIVIDED, FRAGMENTED ENTITIES, I THINK THE DIASPORA MAY TURN OUT TO BE PLAYING A MORE IMPORTANT ROLE BECAUSE THEY COULD DO THINGS. THEY COULD TALK IN WAYS THAT
THOSE INSIDE MAY NOT BE ABLE TO.
J.Z.: LET’S GO TO ILLINOIS FOR A CALL. CALLER?
Caller: YEAH. GOOD AFTERNOON. MY QUESTION IS TO THE GUEST HERE IS THAT THE WORLD
SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT THE ELECTED GOVERNMENT OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLES ARE THE
PEOPLE IN GAZA. THEY’RE NOT MAHMOUD ABBAS AND HIS FOLLOWERS. MAHMOUD ABBAS HAS BEEN APPOINTED. THE REASON THAT PEOPLE IN GAZA ARE FIGHTING IS FIGHTING FOR THE LEGIT TRY, THAT MAHMOUD ABBAS GOVERNMENT ARE GIVING UP. WE ARE NOT—
J.Z.: CALLER? JUST ONE SECOND. JUST ONE SECOND. BUT WASN’T MAHMOUD ABBAS ALSO
ELECTED PRESIDENT OF THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY?
Caller: BUT IF THE WORLD HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THE LEGIT GOVERNMENT OF THE PEOPLE, THEY HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THE PEOPLE OF GAZA BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SOLE
PROPRIETORS OF THE PALESTINIANS.
J.Z.: OK. I JUST WANTED TO CORRECT YOU ON THE FACT THAT HE WASN’T APPOINTED. HE ACTUALLY WAS ELECTED PRESIDENT AND BY A VERY SIGNIFICANT NUMBER. AND HE STILL POLLS BETTER THAN ALMOST ANYBODY ELSE WITH THE EXCEPTION OF MARWAN BARGHOUTI,
HE POLLS BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE IN THE WEST BANK AND GAZA EVEN IN THE MOST RECENT POLL. BUT ANSWER HIS QUESTION. THIS IS A LEGITIMATELY-ELECTED GOVERNMENT.
PRESIDENT CARTER HAS GOTTEN IN TROUBLE, AGAIN, BY MAKING THAT OBSERVATION.
HE MONITORED THE ELECTION. HE’S GOT A STAKE IN IT. WHAT DO WE SAY ABOUT THIS?
WE WANTED THIS ELECTION IN THE UNITED STATES.
Malley: YOU KNOW, THE WORST THING YOU CAN DO, AND I’VE SEEN THIS TWICE IN MY LIFE. I WAS IN ALGERIA WHEN THEY CANCELLED THE SECOND RUN OF THE ELECTIONS, AND I WAS ONEE OF THE OBSERVERS, PART OF PRESIDENT CARTER’S TEAM, OR MDI’S TEAM AT THE TIME IN GAZA AND THE WEST BANK. THE WORST THING YOU CAN DO IS CALL FOR ELECTIONS, PUSH FOR THEM AND THEN IGNORE OR DENY THE RESULTS. AND THAT’S WHAT
HAPPENED IN PALESTINE. YOU CAN’T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. YOU CAN’T CALL FOR ELECTIONS AND THEN DO WHAT WAS DONE TO THIS GOVERNMENT. I THINK WE MISSED AT LEAST TWO OPPORTUNITIES, AFTER THE ELECTIONS TO TRY TO CO-OPT OR TO BRING IN THOSE MEMBERS
OF HAMAS WHO COULD HAVE BEEN BROUGHT IN, I THINK, AFTER THE MECCA AGREEMENT, WHERE WE COULD HAVE DONE THE SAME. I HOPE WE DON’T REPEAT THE SAME MISTAKE NOW, BUT I HAVE EVERY REASON TO FEEL WE WILL.
J.Z.: LET’S GO TO TUNISIA FOR A CALL. CALLER.
Caller: YES. HI, JIM. MY NAME IS KARIM. HOW ARE YOU DOING, SIR? HERE IS MY QUESTION WITH REGARD TO THE SITUATION IN GAZA. WHY MAHMOUD ABBAS HASN’T BEEN
GIVEN A CHANCE TO BECOME A REAL PEACE PARTNER RIGHT FROM THE
START WHEN HE WAS ELECTED? BOTH ISRAELI AND U.S. OFFICIALS WERE VERY RELUCTANT TOWARDS MR. ABBAS. AND NOW, ONLY NOW AFTER ALL WHAT’S BEEN HAPPENING LATELY, THAT HE’S BEING SEEN AS THEIR MAN, EVENTUALLY, A BIT LATE. THANK YOU.
Malley: ABSOLUTELY. I MEAN, SEVERAL YEARS LATE. THE TIME TO HELP ABBAS WAS IN
2005 AFTER HE WAS ELECTED BY A LANDSLIDE WHERE HE WAS VIEWED AS LEGITIMATE, AND
MOST IF NOT BY ALL PALESTINIANS WHERE HE HAD THE ABILITY TO SELL DIFFICULT
COMPROMISES. THAT TIME WAS WASTED, AND NOW WHEN THE PALESTINIANS ARE MORE
DIVIDED THAN EVER IS WHEN WE’RE GOING TO SAY WE’RE GOING TO HAVE THIS PEACE PROCESS THAT HE’S GOING TO HAVE A VERY HARD TIME TO DELIVER. BUT IF HIS PEOPLE—
J.Z.: BUT ARE WE GOING TO HAVE A PEACE PROCESS BECAUSE COULD PRIME MINISTER OLMERT DELIVER ON A PEACE PROCESS RIGHT NOW?
Malley: HERE IS WHAT I THINK. LET’S DISTINGUISH BETWEEN TWO
THINGS. CAN HE DELIVER IMPROVEMENTS ON THE GROUND? I HAVE MY DOUBTS NOT ONLY
BECAUSE HE HASN’T DONE IT IN THE PAST BECAUSE THE I.D.F., THE ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCES, SEEM TO HAVE THEIR OWN AGENDA, BUT ALSO BECAUSE I DON’T THINK THE WEST BANK IS GOING TO BE STABLE ENOUGH. CAN THEY AGREE ON SOME KIND OF VISION?
POSSIBLY. THAT PLAYS TO ABBAS’ STRENGTHS. HE COULD AGREE TO SOME VISION, AND OLMERT. BUT THEN IF IT’S A VISION THAT’S NOT IMPLEMENTED ON THE GROUND, IT’S GOING TO BE THE TARGET OF ATTACK, AND IT’S NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO PROVE
ANYTHING BECAUSE IT WON’T IMPROVE THE LIVES OF THE PEOPLE.
J.Z.: LET’S GO TO ARIZONA.
Caller: YES. MY NAME IS RAE. HI. I HAVE A QUESTION FOR MR. MALLEY.
WELL, ACTUALLY KIND OF A COMMENT QUESTION. I REALLY DON’T UNDERSTAND WHAT
THE AMERICANS THINK THEY’RE GOING FOR, OR DO THEY REALLY CARE TO HAVE A SETTLEMENT IN THE MIDDLE EAST IN THE PALESTINE AREA, OR ARE THEY JUST - THE ONLY WAY THEY’RE GOING TO GET A SETTLEMENT WITH ISRAEL AND THE PALESTINIANS IS IF THE PALESTINIANS ARE STRONG. RIGHT NOW, THEY’RE DIVIDED, AND THEY DID THAT DELIBERATELY TO THEM.
J.Z.: OK. THANK YOU.
Malley: I MIGHT SURPRISE YOU. I ACTUALLY THINK THAT SECRETARY RICE AND THE PRESIDENT WOULD LIKE TO DO SOMETHING, AND IN THEIR MIND IT WOULD BE TO CREATE
A PALESTINIAN STATE, A GENUINE PALESTINIAN STATE. I THINK THEY HAVE IT ALL WRONG IN TERMS OF HOW THEY WANT TO DO IT-ALL OUR DISCUSSION EARLIER ABOUT HOW
THEY WANT TO DEAL WITH HAMAS—BUT ALSO THE FACT THAT THEY DON’T WANT TO DEAL
WITH OTHER COUNTRIES, IN PARTICULAR, SYRIA. AND I THINK YOU MAY IGNORE SYRIA, YOU MAY IGNORE HAMAS. NEITHER SYRIA NOR HAMAS WILL IGNORE THE UNITED STATES, AND
THEY COULD COME BACK AND HAUNT THEM.
J.Z.: LET’S GO TO FINLAND FOR A CALL. CALLER.
Caller: HELLO
J.Z.: HI. YES.
Caller: I WANT TO ASK YOU, PLEASE, WE RETURN BACK TO THE HISTORY, EVERY REPRESSION HAS BEEN FALLEN. IF WE CHECK THE ROMAN HISTORY, IT’S BEEN FALLEN.
AND I WANT TO ASK SOME OTHER QUESTION. I HAVE BEEN READING THE TALMUD BOOK, THE JEWISH BOOK, WHAT ITS MEAN WHEN THEY ARE SAYING “CHOSEN PEOPLE?” THEY ARE CHOSEN PEOPLE FOR WHAT? AND WHAT IT MEAN THEY’RE HAVING THE RIGHT TO BE CHOSEN PEOPLE
AND OTHER PEOPLE THAT HAVE NOT BEEN CHOSEN PEOPLE? SO I WANT TO—EVERYTHING RETURN BACK TO THE HISTORY. WITHOUT HISTORY, WE DON’T LEARN NOTHING.
EVERY REPRESSION HAS BEEN FALLEN AND WILL NEVER STAY. THE ROMAN REPRESSION HAS BEEN FALLEN. THE [INDISTINCT] REPRESSION HAS BEEN FALLEN. THE HITLER HAS BEEN FALLEN.
J.Z.: THANK YOU. THANK YOU. TWO OBSERVATIONS THERE. ONE IS THAT THERE IS A PROBLEM. REPRESSION DOESN’T PAY OFF. YOU CAN SUPPRESS NATIONAL MOVEMENTS FOR SO
LONG AND THEN THEY RISE UP AND USUALLY END UP MORPHING INTO SOMETHING MORE VIRULENT AT THE END. THE SECOND IS IS THAT DURING THE PEACE PROCESS YEARS, IN THE GOOD YEARS EARLY ON, WE SAW A TAMPING DOWN IN THE POLITICAL DISCOURSE. ANGER
DISSIPATES TO A DEGREE WHEN PEOPLE FEEL JUSTICE MAY BE AT HAND. WHEN YOU MAKE JUSTICE A DISTANT, IF AT ALL REALIZABLE, GOAL THE ANGER RESURFACES.
Malley: THAT’S TRUE. I CAN’T ADD ANYTHING TO WHAT YOU SAID. I THINK IT’S TRUE, AND I THINK WHAT WE’RE SEEING NOW IS THE GROWTH OF A NUMBER, A RECORD NUMBER OF
PALESTINIANS PROBABLY HAVE GIVEN UP BOTH ON FATAH AND HAMAS AND BEING ATTRACTED TO MORE NIHLISTIC VIEWS—JIHADI, AL QAEDA.
J.Z.: AND THE SAME IN ISRAEL.
Malley: THAT’S WHAT WILL HAPPEN. I DON’T KNOW. I DON’T THINK QUITE SIMILAR IN ISRAEL BUT CERTAINLY IT’S TRUE—
J.Z.: I MEAN, IN TERMS OF—I READ ISRAELI PRESS—IN TERMS OF SOME OF THE RIGHT-
WING COMMENTATORS ABOUT WHAT TO DO WITH GAZA TODAY, AND SOME OF THE THINGS ARE EMBARRASSINGLY HARSH.
Malley: YEAH. IF PEOPLE LOSE FAITH IN POLITICS, WE KNOW WHERE THEY GO.
J.Z.:THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, ROB. WE’RE GONNA BE BACK IN A MINUTE AND
DISCUSS THE WORLDWIDE REFUGEE SITUATION WITH LAVINIA LIMON. STAY TUNED.
I’M JIM ZOGBY, AND YOU’RE WATCHING “VIEWPOINT.” MY NEXT GUEST IS LAVINIA LIMON. SHE’S PRESIDENT OF THE U.S. COMMITTEE FOR REFUGEES AND IMMIGRANTS. SHE’S WORKED ON BEHALF OF REFUGEES AND IMMIGRANTS FOR OVER 30 YEARS. SHE SERVED IN THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION AS DIRECTOR OF THE OFFICE OF REFUGEE RESETTLEMENT AND WAS DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER FOR THE NEW AMERICAN COMMUNITY FOR THE NATIONAL IMMIGRATION FORUM. IN YOUR CAPACITY IN THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION, YOU WERE A GUEST ON THE SHOW.
Lavinia Limon, Committee for Refugees and Immigrants: I WAS.
J.Z.: BACK WHEN. I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. YESTERDAY WAS WORLD REFUGEE
DAY.
Limon: THAT’S RIGHT.
J.Z.: NOT EXACTLY A JOYFUL DAY TO COMMEMORATE BECAUSE—AND I WANT TO JUST PUT UP, IF WE COULD, ON THE SCREEN A GRAPHIC THAT WE HAVE THAT SHOWS QUITE VIVIDLY WHERE WE ARE IN THE WORLD TODAY ON REFUGEES. NUMBERS WERE DROPPING RATHER SIGNIFICANTLY IN 2002, AND THEY HAVE SHOT UPWARDS. THE NUMBER, THE TOTAL POPULATION OF CONCERN, IT’S CALLED “REFUGEES AND OTHERS,” 33 MILLION REFUGEES,
INTERNALLY DISPLACED PEOPLE, PEOPLE SEEKING ASYLUM, ET CETERA. AND IRAQ IS A BIG PART OF IT.
Limon: THE BIGGEST CRISIS RIGHT NOW. 50,000 PEOPLE A MONTH COMING OUT
OF IRAQ. ALMOST 2 MILLION PEOPLE IN THE REGION, AND THERE IS NO END IN SIGHT.
J.Z.: TWO MILLION OUT AND ANOTHER TWO MILLION INTERNALLY DISPLACED WITHIN IRAQ.
Limon: THAT’S CORRECT.
J.Z.: MANY TRYING TO GET OUT.
Limon: THAT’S RIGHT.
J.Z.: WE HAD RECENTLY THE KING OF JORDAN, KING ABDULLAH WAS HERE, AND THERE WAS SOME TALK ABOUT IT. HE DIDN’T MENTION IT IN HIS CONGRESSIONAL SPEECH. HE FOCUSED
ON THE PEACE PROCESS, BUT CLEARLY TALKED TO PEOPLE IN THE ADMINISTRATION AND IN CONGRESS ABOUT IT. THE QUESTION THAT MANY ARE ASKING IS WHEN YOU HAVE A
POPULATION AS SMALL AS JORDAN AND A POPULATION AS POOR AS JORDAN AS WELL, AS SYRIA, AND YOU PUT ALMOST 2 MILLION REFUGEES SEPARATED OUT BETWEEN THESE TWO
COUNTRIES, HOW DO THEY SUSTAIN THE REFUGEE POPULATION? CAN THEY ABSORB IT?
AND WHAT ARE THE LONG-TERM CONSEQUENCES? WE’VE ALL SEEN THE PALESTINIAN
REFUGEE SITUATION AS IT LINGERED FOR A PERIOD OF TIME. WHAT’S GOING TO HAPPEN WITH THESE IRAQIS IN JORDAN AND IN SYRIA, AND WHAT IS THE IMPACT THAT IT’S HAVING ON THE TWO COUNTRIES?
Limon: THE IMPACT IS VERY SIGNIFICANT. I READ THE DAY THAT JORDAN ESTIMATES THEY’VE SPENT A BILLION DOLLARS ALREADY HELPING THE REFUGEES IN THEIR COUNTRY,
AND I’M SURE SYRIA HAS SPENT A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT. REFUGEES ARE AN INTERNATIONAL RESPONSIBILITY. AND I THINK THE INTERNATIONAL RESPONSE TO THIS HAS BEEN
INADEQUATE AND VERY SLOW. THE U.N. HAD A SPECIAL APPEAL A FEW MONTHS AGO, AND IT WAS MET, BUT IT WAS QUITE MINIMAL. IT WASN’T WHAT WAS NECESSARY. THE IMPACT TO THESE COMMUNITIES OVER THE LONG-TERM AND THESE COUNTRIES, WE—YOU KNOW, I DON’T
HAVE A CRYSTAL BALL—DEPENDS WHEN PEOPLE CAN GO HOME BECAUSE THAT WILL BE THE SOLUTION, ULTIMATELY, FOR MOST OF THE REFUGEES. AND IF THEY HAVE TO STAY THERE SEVERAL YEARS, THE AVERAGE DURATION OF THE REFUGEE SITUATION THESE YEARS, WORLDWIDE, IS 17 YEARS. SO IMAGINE IF THESE PEOPLE ARE IN THESE COUNTRIES FOR 17 YEARS. THE QUESTION IS WHAT ARE THE GOVERNMENTS GOING TO DO? RIGHT NOW THEY’RE TREATING THEM SORT OF LIKE UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS. THEY DON’T HAVE THE RIGHT TO
WORK. THEY ARE HELPING WITH HEALTH CARE, AND SOME OF THE CHILDREN ARE IN SCHOOL.
BUT WE REALLY BELIEVE THAT REFUGEES, ACCORDING TO INTERNATIONAL LAW, HAVE THE RIGHT TO WORK AND THE FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT, THE RIGHT TO OWN PROPERTY. AND IF THESE COUNTRIES ALLOW THE IRAQIS TO PARTICIPATE IN THE ECONOMY, THE BURDEN WILL BE MUCH LESS.
J.Z.: TALK TO ME ABOUT WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT WHO ARE THE IRAQI REFUGEES? FOR EXAMPLE, WE HAVE A LARGE CHALDEAN CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY HERE IN THE U.S., AND THEY ARE TELLING US THAT A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER, FROM WHAT WE UNDERSTAND ALMOST 2/3 OF THE CHALDEAN CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY HAS LEFT IRAQ. WHAT ARE THE OTHER COMPONENT GROUPS OF THESE? WE UNDERSTAND THERE’S A BRAIN-DRAIN AS WELL.
Limon: MM-HMM.
J.Z.: WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT THEM, AND IS THERE A DIFFERENT DEGREE OF STANDING?
I MEAN, ARE THERE SOME WHO ARE DOING WELL IN EXILE BECAUSE THEY HAVE WEALTH AND WHATEVER? OR WHAT IS THE COMMON SITUATION OF THOSE WHO HAVE LEFT?
Limon: WELL, IT IS IN SOME WAYS A CROSS-SECTION OF IRAQI SOCIETY, BUT IT IS TRUE. THE RELIGIOUS MINORITIES, MAINLY CHRISTIANS, HAVE LEFT. A LOT OF THE PALESTINIANS HAVE LEFT. 40% OF THE PROFESSIONAL CLASS OF IRAQ HAS LEFT.
THAT’S A LOT OF DOCTORS AND TEACHERS AND ENGINEERS THAT COULD BE PUT TO WORK.
J.Z.: ARE THEY FINDING WORK, OR ARE THEY IN THE CAMPS?
Limon: NO, NO. WELL, THEY’RE NOT IN CAMPS. THEY’RE LIVING IN AMMAN, IN DAMASCUS
WITH THE HELP OF RELATIVES AND FRIENDS AROUND THE WORLD SENDING MONEY.
THIS IS WHERE WE REALLY THINK THE ADVANTAGE WOULD BE TO PUT THESE FOLKS TO WORK.
BUT I THINK WE’RE ALSO SEEING JUST POOR SHIITE AND SUNNI PEOPLE TRYING TO GET AWAY FROM THE VIOLENCE. LOTS OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TARGETED BECAUSE THEY WORKED FOR THE COALITION FORCES. AND OF COURSE THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO CAME WITH MEANS. THEY’RE PEOPLE WHO CAME RIGHT AFTER THE U.S. INVASION WHO HAD QUITE A LOT OF MONEY, AND PEOPLE ARE SELLING EVERYTHING THEY HAVE AND MOVING, SO THEY’RE ABLE TO SUSTAIN THEMSELVES FOR A WHILE. BUT WE’RE SEEING LOTS OF CHILD LABOR AND PROSTITUTION IN THESE COMMUNITIES IN ORDER FOR PEOPLE TO EAT.
J.Z.: ONE COULD REASONABLY ARGUE THAT THE UNITED STATES IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS.
TO WHAT DEGREE HAVE WE OWNED UP TO THE RESPONSIBILITY, AND ARE WE PROVIDING ADEQUATELY OF THE MONEY WE’RE SPENDING FOR THE WAR, ARE WE ALSO SPENDING
ADEQUATELY ON THE REFUGEE SITUATION?
Limon: WELL, PERSONALLY, I THINK IT’S VERY DISAPPOINTING. THE U.S. HAS RESPONDED IN THE WAY THAT IT ALWAYS RESPONDS TO EVERY REFUGEE CRISIS. THE U.S. ALWAYS COMMITS 30% OF THE ASKING AMOUNT FROM THE U.N. AND WE DID THAT, AND THAT
AMOUNTED, JUST IN THE SPRING, TO $18 MILLION. I DON’T KNOW HOW MANY HOURS OF THE WAR THAT PAYS FOR, BUT THAT’S HOW MUCH WE GAVE. NOW, WE HAVE PROMISED MORE THAT, BUT THE APPEAL AND THE SORT OF TRANSACTION HASN’T TAKEN PLACE, BUT WE’RE TAKING THE POSITION THAT WE ARE DOING WHAT WE NORMALLY DO FOR ANY REFUGEE SITUATION ANYPLACE IN THE WORLD.
J.Z.: WAIT. 18 MILLION DOLLARS AND WE’VE GOT, THAT WE KNOW OF, TWO MILLION PEOPLE IN JORDAN AND SYRIA?
Limon: THAT’S RIGHT.
J.Z.: WHERE IS JORDAN AND SYRIA GETTING THE MONEY TO DEAL WITH THIS? ARE THEY SPENDING OF THEIR OWN, OR ARE THEY GETTING INTERNATIONAL ASSISTANCE?
Limon: THEY’RE SPENDING OF THEIR OWN AND THEY’RE GETTING INTERNATIONAL ASSISTANCE, BUT IT HAS NOT BEEN ENOUGH TO EVEN REALLY MAKE A DENT IN WHAT THEY’RE SPENDING, SO I THINK THEY ARE TO BE COMMENDED FOR DOING WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN DOING, BUT THE BURDEN IS ENORMOUS. THE FINANCIAL COST IS ENORMOUS. THE OTHER THING IS THE UNITED STATES, THIS FISCAL YEAR STARTING OCTOBER 1, HAVE BROUGHT IN 70 IRAQI REFUGEES. NOW, THE STATE DEPARTMENT ANNOUNCED THEY WERE GOING TO PROCESS 7,000, AND THEN THEY SAID “WELL, WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO GET 2,000 OR 3,000 IN THIS FISCAL YEAR.” WELL, AS OF THE END OF MAY, IT’S BEEN 70 PEOPLE.
THERE WAS ONE PERSON WHO ARRIVED IN APRIL AND ONE PERSON WHO ARRIVED IN MAY, SO WE’RE NOT SEEING ANY KIND OF EFFORT IN THAT REGARD EITHER, ALTHOUGH THERE’S LOTS MOVEMENT. THERE’S LOTS OF ACTIVITY, BUT THERE’S NO RESULT.
J.Z.: LISTEN, WE’D LIKE YOU TO GIVE US A CALL IF YOU WANT TO ASK A QUESTION. IF YOU’RE CALLING FROM OVERSEAS, THE NUMBER IS 001-202-842-5056. IF YOU’RE CALLING HERE IN THE U.S., IT’S 1-800-528-2090. CAN WE SWITCH GEARS AND JUST LOOK AT SUDAN AND DARFUR? WE’VE TALKED ABOUT THAT ON THE SHOW A NUMBER OF TIMES BEFORE,
AND THAT IS ACTUALLY DOWN THE LIST. AFGHANISTAN IS THE LARGEST, IRAQ IS NEXT,
SUDAN IS THE THIRD LARGEST REFUGEE PROBLEM. AND A LOT OF IT IS INTERNAL DISPLACEMENT AS WELL, ON TOP OF THE REFUGEES. IT GETS GREATER ATTENTION.
DOES IT GET GREATER SUPPORT?
Limon: THERE IS A LOT OF INTERNATIONAL ASSISTANCE TO CHAD AND TO THE DISPLACED
PEOPLE IN DARFUR. IT’S NOT RESOLVING THEIR PROBLEMS. THEY STILL GO WITHOUT ADEQUATE RATIONS. IT’S VERY LOGISTICALLY DIFFICULT TO GET MATERIALS AND FOOD THERE. AND THERE IS REALLY, YOU KNOW, THE DIPLOMACY HAS BEEN EXCRUCIATINGLY SLOW, AND AT THIS POINT PEOPLE ARE STILL SUFFERING.
J.Z.: OBVIOUSLY, THE LARGEST OF THE PROBLEMS, BUT IT’S ALWAYS NOT MENTIONED IN A
SEPARATE CATEGORY, IS THE PALESTINIAN ONE AND LARGEST BOTH NUMERICALLY—
Limon: RIGHT.
J.Z.: AND THE DISTRIBUTION OF WHERE THEY ARE IN TERMS OF THE NUMBER OF COUNTRIES THAT HAVE SIGNIFICANT PALESTINIAN POPULATIONS. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I DON’T
GET IS THAT WHEN ONE TALKS ABOUT REFUGEES AND THEIR RIGHT TO RETURN TO THEIR HOMES - AND THIS IS NOT A QUESTION ABOUT SOME ABSTRACTION. IT’S A HOUSE THAT YOU LOST AND LEFT. THERE IS SIMPLY NO DISCUSSION OF THAT POSSIBLE IN THE UNITED STATES, AND THERE IS A SENSE THAT THEY LEFT, THEY LOST, THEY SHOULD JUST GET
ON WITH THEIR LIVES AND OTHER PEOPLE SHOULD TAKE THEM IN. BUT THAT’S NOT THE PHILOSOPHY OF THOSE WHO WORK WITH REFUGEES. HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH THAT?
Limon: WELL, THEY USUALLY HAVE ABOUT THREE DURABLE SOLUTIONS-THE PREFERABLE ONE BEING ABLE TO GO BACK HOME, THE SECOND ON BEING ABLE TO ENJOY A LIFE WHERE YOU HAPPEN TO BE. AND THE THIRD ONE IS THIRD-COUNTRY RESETTLEMENT, LIKE COMING TO THE UNITED STATES OR AUSTRALIA. OF COURSE, THE PALESTINIANS ARE ALWAYS CONSIDERED COMPLETELY SEPARATE FROM THIS REGIME BECAUSE THEY WERE ORIGINALLY—
THEIR CARE WAS TAKEN UP BY UNRO, ESTABLISHED BY THE U.N. UNHCR DOES NOT COUNT THEM IN THEIR STATISTICS. WE AT THE WORLD REFUGEE SURVEY DO. EACH COUNTRY HAS ESTABLISHED THEIR OWN SET OF REGIME FOR DEALING WITH THEM. I DON’T THINK IN THE REFUGEE WORLD WE REALLY TALK ABOUT THE RIGHT TO RETURN OF PEOPLE. IT ICONSIDERED LIKE A HUMANITARIAN PROBLEM. ALTHOUGH, OF COURSE, IT’S COMPLETELY RUN BY POLITICS.
J.Z.: YEAH.
Limon: SO, YOU KNOW, THOSE THREE—ANY OF THOSE THREE DURABLE SOLUTIONS ARE
CONSIDERED EQUITABLE, AS IT WERE.
J.Z.: LET’S GO TO GERMANY. WE HAVE A CALL HOLDING FROM THERE. CALLER, REAL QUICK QUESTION. HELLO?
Caller: HELLO.
J.Z.: YES, A REAL QUICK QUESTION.
Caller: YES. HI.
J.Z.: HI.
Caller: I WANT TO ASK ABOUT THE REFUGEES.
J.Z.: YES.
Caller: IS IT BECAUSE OF THE POLITICAL REASON THAT IS THE REASON WHY
THE PEOPLE THEY ARE REFUGEES BECAUSE OF THE, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE OF ECONOMIC PROBLEMS AND BECAUSE OF THE OIL? AND ISN’T IT BECAUSE OF THESE OPTIONS AND AMERICAN IMPERIALISM, THAT WHY YOU ARE PUSHING PEOPLE BECAUSE MORE AND
MORE POVERTY AND MORE AND MORE PEOPLE THERE ARE RUNNING.
I WANT TO ASK YOU SOMETHING—PLEASE, DON’T CUT ME AND GIVE ME
A CHANCE TO TALK, PLEASE.
J.Z.: BUT I ONLY HAVE A MINUTE LEFT IN THE SHOW. SO GIVE ME A QUESTION.
Caller: OK. OK, I’LL GIVE YOU THE QUESTION. I’LL GIVE YOU THE QUESTION.
MY QUESTION IS LIKE THIS. BECAUSE—HELLO.
J.Z.: YES. HELLO.
Caller: I THINK IT’S BECAUSE OF THIS PURPOSE ALL OF IT BECAUSE OF
ISRAEL. I THINK ISRAEL, THEY’RE CONTROLLING THE WORLD AND THAT
IS THE REASON WHY THE PEOPLE THERE HAVE—
J.Z.: OK, THANK YOU. HE WANTS TO GET INTO THE POLITICS OF THIS ISSUE, BUT THE
QUESTION IS THERE IS AN AMERICAN RESPONSIBILITY HERE, AND I THINK WE’LL JUST LEAVE IT AT THAT. WE HAVE ANOTHER CALL HOLDING FROM - WHERE?- CALLER.
HELLO? U.K.
Caller: HELLO, YEAH.
J.Z.: QUICK QUESTION.
Caller: YEAH. I WAS WONDERING WHY, YOU KNOW, TO START WITH, WHEN THEY STARTED
ON GETTING ALL THE CHRISTIANS OUT FROM MOSUL, THEY BURNED THE, YOU KNOW, THE CENTER WHERE THEY HAVE KEPT ALL THE RECORDS.
J.Z.: RIGHT.
Caller: AND THEY USED—LATER, YOU KNOW, IT CAME OUT IN THE ELECTION, THEY USED ALL THE CHRISTIANS’ VOTES AS KURDS.
J.Z.: OK.
Caller: AND THAT’S WHY—
J.Z.: YOU HAVE TO—YOU HAVE TO GIVE ME A QUESTION, THOUGH, MA’AM.
Caller: YEAH. WHY THIS BEING ALLOWED, AND BLACKED OUT FROM ANY KNOWLEDGE OF THE WORLD?
J.Z.: THANK YOU. DO WE HAVE RECORDS? ARE THERE RECORDS AVAILABLE ABOUT WHO IS A REFUGEE AND THEREFORE, WHO DOES—FOR IRAQIS WANTING TO RETURN? OR HAVE RECORDS BEEN CONFISCATED AND/OR DESTROYED?
Limon: I WOULDN’T KNOW IF THE U.S. RECORDS MIGHT BE. IN TERMS OF REFUGEES, THEY RARELY COME WITH RECORDS. OF COURSE, IT’S ALWAYS GOOD TO COME DON’T ALWAYS COME WITH AS MUCH DOCUMENTATION AS YOU CAN. THERE ARE I KNOW WITH THE CHRISTIANS THAT THE COMMUNITIES HAVE COALESCED. THEY’VE CREATED LISTS AMONG THEMSELVES. THEY’VE PRESENTED THOSE LISTS TO THE DEPARTMENT OF STATE, AND THEY ARE BEING LOOKED AT VERY CLOSELY.
J.Z.: AND DO YOU THINK THERE WILL BE ANY MOVEMENT HERE IN TERMS OF THE U.S. ALLOWING MORE PEOPLE IN THE NEXT YEAR?
Limon: THAT’S THE PLAN. WE CERTAINLY HOPE SO.
J.Z.: LISTEN, THANK YOU ALL. THAT’S ALL THE TIME WE HAVE. I WANT TO THANK MY GUESTS, DANIEL FRIED FROM THE STATE DEPARTMENT, ROB MALLEY, AND LAVINIA LIMON.
SEE YOU NEXT WEEK ON “VIEWPOINT.”
