Dr. James Zogby

Viewpoint Episode and Transcript: 06/14/07

Posted on Friday June 22, 2007

James Zogby: HI, I’M JIM ZOGBY, AND WELCOME TO “VIEWPOINT.” TONIGHT WE’LL GET AN ANALYSIS ON RECENT EVENTS IN LEBANON WITH FOREIGN POLICY ADVISOR AMAL MUDALLALI, THEN WE’LL TAKE A LOOK AT DEVELOPMENTS IN PAKISTAN WITH PUNJAB CABINET MINISTER MOWAHID HUSSAIN. WELL, WEDNESDAY WAS A DAY OF MULTIPLE TRAGEDIES THROUGHOUT THE MIDDLE EAST. THERE WAS CONTINUING FRATRICIDAL CONFLICT IN GAZA, ANOTHER CRUEL ASSASSINATION OF A LEBANESE MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, AND THE BOMBING OF THE MOSQUE OF THE TWO IMAMS IN SAMARRA. FIRST WE’RE GONNA TAKE A LOOK AT THE SITUATION IN GAZA WHERE HAMAS, IT IS SAID, NOW HAS THE UPPER HAND IN ITS ASSAULT ON FATAH POSITIONS IN THAT DEVASTATED STRIP OF LAND. BEFORE WE GO TO OUR FIRST GUEST, I WANT TO SHARE WITH YOU A REMARKABLE SCENE OF THE STANDOFF THAT OCCURRED YESTERDAY BETWEEN GUNMEN AND A GROUP OF PALESTINIAN PROTESTERS. YOU’LL SEE IT IN PHOTOS THAT WERE TAKEN FROM A REPORT THAT OCCURRED LAST NIGHT ON “ABC EVENING NEWS.” I SAW THE PICTURES AND WANTED TO SHARE THEM WITH YOU.
LET’S TAKE A LOOK. IN THE MIDST OF A GUN BATTLE IN THE STREETS, A DOZEN YOUNG PALESTINIAN PROTESTERS WALKED DIRECTLY INTO THE LINE OF FIRE TO CONFRONT THE GUNMEN. ONE BRAVE MAN CHALLENGED THE GUNMAN SAYING, “EVEN IF YOU KILL US WE WILL CONTINUE TO MARCH.” IT WAS AN EXTRAORDINARY ACT OF COURAGE IN A WEEK OF CHAOS AND FRUSTRATION. JOINING US ON THE PHONE RIGHT NOW IS, FROM RAMALLAH, IS LAMIA MATTA. SHE’S MIDDLE EAST ADVOCACY DIRECTOR FOR THE INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP. LAMIA SERVED AS LEGAL ADVISER TO PALESTINIAN NEGOTIATIONS DURING THE WITHDRAWAL OF ISRAELI TROOPS AND SETTLERS FROM THE GAZA STRIP AND THE WEST BANK. LAMIA, ARE YOU WITH US?

Lamia Matta: I AM. I AM.

J.Z.: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. GIVE US AN UPDATE. IT’S LATE THERE, I KNOW, RIGHT NOW, AND THANK YOU FOR BEING ON THE PHONE WITH US. WHAT IS THE LATEST UPDATE YOU’RE GETTING FROM THE SITUATION IN GAZA? HAVE ALL FATAH POSITIONS FELL, OR IN FACT ARE THERE SOME STILL HOLDING?

Matta: IT APPEARS THAT ALL FATAH POSITIONS HAVE FALLEN EXCEPT FOR THE PRESIDENTIAL COMPOUND IN GAZA CITY. WE’RE SEEING ON TELEVISION, IN ANY EVENT, FOOTAGE OF FIGHTING HAPPENING AROUND THE PRESIDENTIAL COMPOUND. BUT IT DOESN’T SEEM AS THOUGH IT’S BEEN—IT’S BEEN TAKEN OVER YET.

J.Z.: TELL ME, THE STORY THAT I JUST PLAYED ABOUT THE PROTESTERS TRYING TO PUT THEMSELVES BETWEEN THE GUNMEN, IS THAT A VERY ISOLATED EVENT? HAVE THERE BEEN OTHER SITUATIONS LIKE THAT? ARE PEOPLE IN GAZA TOLERATING THIS? ARE THEY PASSIVE IN THE FACE OF IT, OR IS THERE A BUDDING RESISTANCE TO THE FIGHTING?

Matta: I HAVEN’T HEARD OF ANY INCIDENTS SIMILAR TO THE ONE THAT YOU DESCRIBE, BUT THERE IS A STRONG SENSE IN GAZA THAT THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NOT A GOOD TIME, AND THIS DOES NOT BODE WELL FOR THEIR FUTURE. THERE WAS A RECENT POLL DONE THAT INDICATED THAT 80% OF THE GAZA POPULATION FEELS INSECURE, PEOPLE AREN’T WILLING TO LEAVE THEIR HOMES. AND THERE IS VIOLENCE ON THE STREETS. I MEAN, PEOPLE ARE JUST SIMPLY—THEIR DAILY LIVES HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY INTERRUPTED, AND THINGS ARE JUST NOT FUNCTIONING AS THEY NORMALLY WOULD. WHETHER OR NOT PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY GOING OUT EN MASSE ON THE STREET TO PROTEST THESE EVENTS, I WOULD ACTUALLY DOUBT IT.

J.Z.: OK. TELL ME ONE THING. THERE WAS A PICTURE IN THE “NEW YORK TIMES” TODAY OF A SCENE ON THE WEST BANK WHERE IT SHOWED FATAH FIGHTERS INVADING A HAMAS OFFICE THERE. AND THE QUESTION IS, IS THE VIOLENCE GOING TO SPILL OVER NOW INTO RETRIBUTION IN THE WEST BANK? ARE THERE ANY SIGNS OF THAT, AND ARE THERE CONCERNS ABOUT THAT OCCURRING?

Matta: YEAH. I THINK IT IS A SIGNIFICANT CONCERN. THERE’S CERTAINLY A RISK THAT VIOLENCE WILL BREAK OUT ON THE WEST BANK, ALTHOUGH I DON’T THINK IT WILL BREAK IN THE WAY THAT IT HAS IN THE GAZA STRIP. THERE HAVE BEEN SMALL ERUPTIONS OVER THESE PAST MONTHS IN THE WEST BANK, BUT YOU DO NOT HAVE THE SAME KIND OF SEVERITY THAT THEY’VE HAD IN THE GAZA STRIP. SO MY SENSE IS THAT YOU WILL HAVE SOME RETALIATION HERE. FATAH IS STRONGER IN THE WEST BANK THAN IT IS IN THE STRIP. AND YOU’VE ALSO HAD QUITE A LOT OF STATEMENTS BEING MADE BY FATAH ACTIVISTS THAT THEY WILL RETALIATE IN THE WEST BANK. ON THE OTHER HAND, I’M NOT SURE THAT IT WILL ESCALATE TO THE LEVEL THAT IT HAS ESCALATED TO IN THE GAZA STRIP. AND THE SITUATION CERTAINLY IS DIFFERENT IN THE WEST BANK, AND THERE ARE MANY FACTORS THAT WOULD CONTAIN THE VIOLENCE FOR NOW, AT THE VERY LEAST.
THE PROBLEM IS THAT EVEN IF THE VIOLENCE IS CONTAINED, THERE HAS BEEN A GENIE THAT’S BEEN RELEASED FROM THE BOTTLE HERE. AND REALLY IT’S AS THOUGH THE VIOLENCE HAS SPILLED INTO SOMETHING SORT OF UNCONTROLLABLE, AND I DON’T KNOW IF THERE’S ANY TURNING BACK. SO EVEN IF YOU HAVE SMALL ERUPTIONS THAT HAPPEN NOW, THE QUESTION IS WHETHER OR NOT EVENTUALLY AFTER SOME TIME IT WILL JUST BECOME ALL-OUT VIOLENCE.

J.Z.: A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO THERE WAS A UNITY GOVERNMENT. PEOPLE WERE CELEBRATING IT, AND THERE WAS A SENSE THAT PEOPLE MIGHT IN FACT BE COMING TOGETHER. THAT CLEARLY HAS BROKEN DOWN. ONE OF THE MORE WORRYING SIGNS THAT I SAW EVIDENCE OF, JUST ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE OF, IS THE DEPERSONALIZATION, DEHUMANIZATION OF EACH OF THE TWO SIDES BY EACH OF THE OTHER SIDE. SOME REPORTS OF FATAH ACTIVISTS REFERRING TO HAMAS AS SHI’A AND THERE HAVE BEEN MANY REPORTS ACTUALLY OF THE TERM “JEWISH AMERICANS” BEING HURLED AT THE FATAH FIGHTERS BY THOSE IN HAMAS. IS THAT THE KIND OF GENIE THAT YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT—THIS SENSE OF EACH SIDE NO LONGER SEEING THE OTHER SIDE AS PART OF THE SAME NATIONAL COMMUNITY?

Matta: YEAH. I THINK -

J.Z.: HELLO?

Matta: HELLO?

J.Z.: YEAH. HI, LAMIA.

Matta: I THINK THAT’S ACTUALLY RIGHT- SIGNIFICANT DIVISIONS IN THE PALESTINIAN POLITICAL STRUCTURE HAVE EMERGED. AND THE GENIE ISN’T REALLY AS MUCH THE DEHUMANIZATION—OF COURSE THAT IS SYMPTOMATIC—BUT IT’S SYMPTOMATIC OF SOMETHING MORE TROUBLING WHICH IS THE ABILITY AND THE WILLINGNESS TO ENGAGE IN THE LEVEL OF VIOLENCE THAT WE’VE SEEN IN THE PAST WEEK. AND PALESTINIANS THEMSELVES, ESPECIALLY IN THE WEST BANK ARE IN SHOCK THAT THIS IS HAPPENING INTERNALLY.

J.Z.: ON THE UNITY GOVERNMENT ISSUE, CLEARLY NO TIME SOON WILL WE GET A REINVIGORATED MECCA ACCORD, BUT IS THERE ANY DISCUSSION OF ANYONE PLAYING A ROLE IN TRYING TO CREATE CONVERSATION, DIALOGUE, A CEASE-FIRE BETWEEN THE SIDES, OR IS THIS PRETTY MUCH GOING TO PLAY OUT AS WE SEE IT WITH HAMAS IN COMPLETE CONTROL OF GAZA AND FATAH EVACUATED FROM ANY ROLE IN THE GAZA STRIP?
LAMIA? I THINK WE LOST THE CONNECTION. LAMIA’S GONNA BE BACK FROM RAMALLAH.
AND WHEN WE—WHEN SHE COMES BACK I ACTUALLY AM GONNA INVITE HER TO BE ON THE SHOW NEXT WEEK IN PERSON WITH US TO GIVE A FIRSTHAND ACCOUNT OF WHAT’S GOING ON. WE’RE GONNA TAKE A BREAK RIGHT NOW. WHEN WE COME BACK WE’RE GONNA BE JOINED BY AMAL MUDALLALI ABOUT A DISCUSSION ON LEBANON, AND WE’LL TAKE YOUR CALLS. STAY TUNED.
WELCOME BACK. I’M JIM ZOGBY, AND YOU’RE WATCHING “VIEWPOINT.” NEXT GUEST IS DR. AMAL MUDALLALI. SHE’S FOREIGN POLICY ADVISOR TO LEBANON’S MP, SAAD HARIRI, HEAD OF THE FUTURE PARLIAMENTARY BLOCK. DR. MUDALLALI WAS FOREIGN MEDIA ADVISOR TO PRIME MINISTER RAFIK HARIRI FROM 1998 TO 2000 AND SERVED AS FOREIGN AFFAIRS ADVISOR FROM 2000 UNTIL HIS ASSASSINATION IN 2005. YOU ALSO WERE THE RECIPIENT, I UNDERSTAND, OF THE LEGION OF HONOR RECENTLY IN FRANCE.

Dr. Amal Mudallali: YEAH, I WAS LUCKY AND HONORED TO RECEIVE THAT, YES, FROM THE FRENCH PRESIDENT.

J.Z.: THANKS FOR JOINING US, AMAL. LISTEN, THESE ARE DARK DAYS IN LEBANON.
AND YOU’VE THROUGH A LOT. YOU YOURSELF HAVE BEEN THROUGH A LOT. I REMEMBER TALKING TO YOU THE DAY AFTER THE PRIME MINISTER DIED. AND DID YOU EVER THINK THAT IT WOULD GO ON SO LONG AND TAKE SO MANY LIVES?

Mudallali: ACTUALLY, AFTER MR. HARIRI DIED IT WAS A NIGHTMARE AS EVERYBODY KNOWS, BUT WE THOUGHT THE NIGHTMARE IS OVER, ESPECIALLY WHEN ONE MILLION PEOPLE WENT DOWN IN DISEASE IN LEBANON, AND THEY CALLED FOR LEBANON TO BE FREE AND FOR DEMOCRACY IN LEBANON TO BE ESTABLISHED. AND THERE WAS A GREAT TIME IN LEBANON WHEN WE, FOR THE FIRST TIME I FELT—I WAS SO PROUD TO BE LEBANESE. I CONNECTED TO EVERY SINGLE YOUNG WOMAN AND MAN, THESE PEOPLE WHO WERE IN THE STREETS IN BEIRUT, ESPECIALLY IN DOWNTOWN BEIRUT. WE DIDN’T KNOW THIS WAS THE BEGINNING OF THE NIGHTMARE WHICH IS STILL GOING ON NOW FOR TWO YEARS. WE’RE LOSING PEOPLE—EVERY COUPLE OF MONTHS WE’RE LOSING ONE OF OUR LEADERS. WE’RE LOSING PEOPLE IN OTHER BATTLES. AND THE BIGGEST TRAGEDY ALSO FOR LEBANON, WHICH NOBODY TALKS ABOUT, IS NOT ONLY THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE LOSING IN CAR EXPLOSIONS AND THESE KINDS OF THINGS, MOST OF YOUNG LEBANESE ARE LEAVING LEBANON.

J.Z.: I SAW A POLL RECENTLY, ACTUALLY, THAT A PARTNER OF OURS IN LEBANON DID, SHOWED HUGE NUMBERS. MORE THAN 30% OF LEBANESE WANT TO LEAVE, AND THE NUMBERS AMONG YOUNG ARE EVEN HIGHER.

Mudallali: YES. PEOPLE FEEL THERE IS NO HOPE, UNFORTUNATELY, BECAUSE OF THIS CAMPAIGN AGAINST LEBANON. IT’S A CAMPAIGN FROM WITHIN AND A CAMPAIGN FROM OUTSIDE. WE HAVE TWO - WE’RE BEING HAMMERED BY TWO CAMPAIGNS, A CAMPAIGN INSIDE LEBANON BY AN OPPOSITION THAT WE RESPECT AND WE WANT TO BE PARTNERS IN THE COUNTRY, TO PUT THE COUNTRY TOGETHER. BUT UNFORTUNATELY THEIR WAY OF DOING THINGS AND THEIR WAY OF TRYING TO REACH POLITICAL ACCORD, IT’S NOT WORKING FOR LEBANON, NOT WORKING FOR THEM OR FOR US.

J.Z.: ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT THE SERIAL ASSASSINATIONS THAT CAUSES CONCERN IS WHERE YOU HAVE AN ISOLATED ASSASSINATION, A COUNTRY CAN ALMOST DEAL WITH THAT.
BUT WHERE THERE ARE THESE TARGETED ASSASSINATIONS, REPEATED ASSASSINATION OVER A SERIES, OVER A PERIOD OF TIME, IT IS A GENUINE THREAT TO THE VERY VITALITY OF THE DEMOCRACY ITSELF. WILL THERE BE A TIME WHEN A TOTAL COLLAPSE OCCURS,
WHEN PEOPLE ARE AFRAID TO SPEAK OUT BECAUSE NO ONE KNOWS WHO NEXT WILL BE THE TARGET?

Mudallali: I THINK THIS IS BASICALLY ON THE MIND OF THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING THIS BECAUSE THEY FEEL THE LEBANESE WILL GIVE UP, AND THE LEBANESE WILL SAY, YOU KNOW, “THAT’S IT. WE’LL ACCEPT WHATEVER PEOPLE ARE GOING TO IMPOSE ON US.”
BUT I THINK THE LEBANESE HAVE REACHED A POINT WHERE THEY SAYING ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, BUT THEY ARE NOT GOING TO GIVE IN. THEY’RE NOT GOING TO ACCEPT THAT THEY WILL GO BACK TO A TIME WHERE THEY DID NOT HAVE DECISIONS TAKEN FROM THEM BY THEIR LEADERS. THEY’RE NOT GOING TO ACCEPT TO GO BACK TO DAYS WHERE LEBANON HAD NO REAL VOICE, HAD NO VOICE TO SAY IN THE WORLD. LEBANON NOW IS FREE.
AND THE GOVERNMENT IN LEBANON NOW WAS DOING A VERY GOOD JOB IN TRYING TO PUT BACK THE BLOCKS TOGETHER IN THE POLITICAL FIELD, IN THE ECONOMY, ON THE SOCIAL LEVEL. WE WERE TRYING TO BUILD THE COUNTRY AGAIN. BUT UNFORTUNATELY, HOW CAN YOU DO THIS WHEN YOU HAVE-LOOK WHAT WE HAVE NOW, WHAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS TO DEAL WITH NOW. WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THESE ASSASSINATIONS, THIS THREAT, THIS SWORD ON EVERY POLITICIAN’S HEAD, ELECTED OR NOT ELECTED. THEN YOU HAVE NOW THE PROBLEM THAT THEY CREATED FOR US IN THE CAMPS IN THE NORTH. SO YOU HAVE THAT CAMPAIGN ALSO IN THE NORTH WITH THE FATAH ISLAM. AND THEN YOU HAVE THAT—THEY CALL THEM STATION, SIT IN, SOME PEOPLE CALLING IT OCCUPATION IN DOWNTOWN BEIRUT THAT’S PARALYZING THE COUNTRY, PARALYZING THE ECONOMY, AND BASICALLY ENDED THE TOURIST SEASON. AND THIS IS WHAT LEBANON LIVES ON. SO YOU HAVE THESE STREET CAMPAIGN. WHAT GOVERNMENT IN THE WORLD CAN PUT UP WITH ALL OF THIS AND BE ABLE STAND ON ITS FEET?

J.Z.: I HAVE TWO QUESTIONS THAT COME, AND I WANT TO ASK THEM IN SERIES. THE FIRST IS, IN POLLING THAT WE HAVE DONE, IT’S VERY INTERESTING. I CALL IT RED STATE-BLUE STATE WRIT LARGE. I MEAN, IT IS PROBABLY THE MOST DIVIDED POLITY I’VE EVER SEEN, WITH ONE HALF OF THE COUNTRY THINKING ONE WAY AND THE OTHER HALF THINKING ANOTHER WAY AROUND SOME QUESTIONS. AROUND OTHER QUESTIONS THERE’S TREMENDOUS UNITY. BUT IT APPEARS ALMOST THAT THE AGENDAS FOCUS ON THE DIVISION AND NOT ON THE POINTS THAT BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER. PEOPLE DO WANT A NEW NATIONAL ACCORD. PEOPLE DO WANT A DIFFERENT WAY OF ELECTING THE PRESIDENT. PEOPLE DO WANT A MORE REPRESENTATIVE SYSTEM, WHETHER SUNNI, SHI’A, MARONITE ORTHODOX, WANT TO SEE THE SHI’A MORE EMPOWERED IN THE COUNTRY ON THE ONE SIDE. ON THE OTHER SIDE, EVERYONE WANTS THE ECONOMY TO BE THE FOCUS OF ATTENTION, ET CETERA.
BUT PEOPLE INSTEAD FOCUS ON OTHER ISSUES. WHAT CAN BE DONE TO CREATE THIS REFOCUSING BECAUSE CLEARLY, ALL OF THE PROBLEMS THAT CURRENTLY EXIST, WHILE OUTSIDE FORCES HAVE A ROLE, THERE ARE CORRECTLY, AS YOU NOTE, INSIDE PROBLEMS, AS WELL. THIS PARALYSIS OF THE CENTER OF THE CITY THAT—YOUR FORMER BOSS USED TO CALL IT THE HEART OF THE CITY—AND HE WANTED TO REBUILD THE HEART FIRST SO THAT, AS HE PUT IT TO ME ONE TIME, SO THAT THE HEART WOULD BEAT AND PUMP BLOOD TO THE REST OF THE COUNTRY. IT’S GONE. HOW DO YOU GET PEOPLE TO REFOCUS?
HOW DO YOU GET THE GOVERNMENT TO REFOCUS ON THE THINGS THAT BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER IN THE COUNTRY?

Mudallali: YOU KNOW, PEOPLE CAN START WITH WHERE WE LEFT OFF LAST WEEK WHEN THE SECURITY COUNCIL APPROVED INTERNATIONAL TRIBUNAL FOR MR. HARIRI’S KILLING AND THE OTHER CRIMES SINCE THEN. MR. SAAD HARIRI CAME OUT ON TELEVISION AND HE PUT HIS HAND OUT AND HE SAID, “MY HAND IS EXTENDED IN ONE DIALOGUE. I WANT TO SIT DOWN WITH OUR PARTNERS IN THE COUNTRY AND SOLVE THE PROBLEMS, WHATEVER POLITICAL PROBLEMS, WE’LL SOLVE. YOU WANT A UNITY GOVERNMENT? WE’LL TALK ABOUT. WE’LL HAVE A UNITY GOVERNMENT. BUT YOU HAVE TO TALK. WE HAVE TO HAVE A DIALOGUE.” TILL TODAY THEY HAVE NOT ANSWERED HIM. ACTUALLY INDIRECTLY WE GOT NEGATIVE ANSWERS. SOMEBODY HAS TO SIT DOWN AT A ROUND TABLE, IN ANY FORMAT. THERE WAS A PROPOSITION TO GO TO FRANCE, TO PUT THEM IN FRANCE AND TALK. WHEREVER THEY WANT. WE HAVE TO SIT DOWN AND TALK.

J.Z.: THAT WAS MY NEXT QUESTION. THE NEW FRENCH PRESIDENT HAS LAUNCHED AN INITIATIVE, IS INVITING THE VARIOUS PARTIES, AND HE’S BEEN INVITING MANY OF THE OPPOSITION. GENERAL [INDISTINCT] HAS BEEN THERE A NUMBER OF TIMES, ET CETERA. IS THERE A CHANCE THAT THE FRENCH CAN BRING THIS TOGETHER? SOME SUGGEST THE U.S. IS NOT TOTALLY SUPPORTIVE OF THE EFFORT, BUT ARE THE PARTIES IN LEBANON SUPPORTING THIS FRENCH INITIATIVE?

Mudallali: OF COURSE WE SUPPORTED IT. THE FRENCH ENVOY CAME, AND HE MET WITH EVERYBODY, WITH MR. HARIRI. AND HE WELCOMED THE INITIATIVE. WE SAID WE WOULD PARTICIPATE. AND EVERYBODY IN THE COUNTRY IS WILLING TO PARTICIPATE. I DON’T KNOW IF YOU KNOW THAT IT’S NOT GOING TO BE ON THE LEADERS’ LEVEL. IT’S GOING TO BE SECOND TIER LEADERSHIP, NGOs AND CIVIL SOCIETY AND STUFF LIKE THAT.
BECAUSE THE FRENCH’S IDEA IS TO START TALKING AGAIN, TO START TALKING ON AL THE ISSUES, ON ANY ISSUES, BUT JUST START THE PROCESS OF TALKING BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE NOT TALKING TO EACH OTHER. AND WE ARE FOR THAT. BUT THE PROBLEM IS BETWEEN NOW AND THE END OF THE MONTH WHEN YOU ARE GOING TO SIT DOWN AND TALK, IF THIS IS GOING TO TAKE PLACE IN FRANCE, WHAT DO YOU DO? NOW WE HAVE A NEW ASSASSINATION.
YOU WOULD THINK THAT NOW THE COUNTRY WOULD COME TOGETHER, AND THIS WILL BE AN INCENTIVE FOR PEOPLE TO SAY, “LOOK, WE CANNOT DEAL WITH OUR ISSUES ANYMORE.
WE HAVE TO SIT DOWN AND TALK ABOUT THEM.” BECAUSE WHOEVER IS DOING THIS IS EXPLOITING THE DIVISIONS BETWEEN LEBANESE, AMONG THE LEBANESE. WE HAVE TO SIT DOWN TOGETHER AND TALK AND SOLVE THIS PROBLEM. YOU WOULD THINK THEY WILL SAY, “LET’S LIFT THIS BLOCKADE FROM DOWNTOWN BEIRUT. LET’S LET BEIRUT BREATHE AGAIN. LET’S HAVE SOME CONFIDENCE-BUILDING MEASURE BETWEEN US.” ONE OF US WILL SHOW THE OTHER THAT, AS HARIRI SHOWED, THAT HE REALLY WANTS TO TALK. WE ARE WILLING FOR EVERYTHING BECAUSE FOR US THE INTERNATIONAL TRIBUNAL WAS SO IMPORTANT.
WE SAID NOW WE HAVE THE TRIBUNAL, WE’RE WILLING TO COMPROMISE AND GIVE ANYTHING THE OTHERS WANT JUST TO BRING THE COUNTRY BACK TOGETHER. WE NEED AN ANSWER. WE NEED A PARTNER.

J.Z.: LET’S GET YOU OUT THERE INTO THE CONVERSATION. IF YOU WANT TO CALL US FROM OVERSEAS THE NUMBER IS 001-202-842-5056. IF YOU’RE CALLING FROM HERE IN THE U.S., IT’S 1-800-528-2090. THIS SITUATION IN THE CAMP IN THE NORTH, THE ARMY IS BEARING THE BRUNT OF THIS AND HAS TAKEN A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF LOSSES ALREADY. THERE WERE SOME CONCERNS THAT THE ARMY MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO WITHSTAND THIS SITUATION. WHERE IS IT NOW? AND HOW STRONG DO YOU THINK THE ARMY IS IN TERMS OF ITS RESILIENCE AND ITS INTERNAL UNITY?

Mudallali: THE ARMY IS UNITED. THE ARMY HAS RESILIENCE, AND THE ARMY PROVED THAT IT’S DOING THE BEST JOB THAT IT CAN UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES. THE PROBLEM IS YOU ARE FIGHTING IN A RESIDENTIAL AREA. YOU’RE FIGHTING WHERE CIVILIANS LIVE. AND THE ARMY DOES NOT WANT TO KILL CIVILIANS. THEY DON’T WANT TO HURT PEOPLE. THEY JUST WANT TO FINISH THIS PROBLEM WITHOUT, YOU KNOW, KILLING THESE PEOPLE, WITHOUT KILLING MORE PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS, INNOCENT PALESTINIANS.
THE PROBLEM IS THIS GANG, THESE TERRORISTS ARE USING THESE, THIS CAMP AND THE PALESTINIANS THERE AS A HUMAN SHIELD. THEY ARE SITTING THERE AND THEY’RE FIGHTING FROM BEHIND THE BEHIND THE HOUSES, ON THE FRONT OF HOUSES, INSIDE THE HOUSES. THE PROBLEM IS WE, THE GOVERNMENT ASKS THAT THESE GUYS THAT THEY, THEY GIVE THEMSELVES IN TO THE ARMY OR TO THE POLICE, WHATEVER, AND THEY WILL GET A FAIR TRIAL. THEY WILL BE PROTECTED. NOBODY WILL DO ANYTHING TO THEM, AND SO FAR ALL THE NEGOTIATIONS THAT WERE GOING IN BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT AND THESE GUYS ON BEHALF OF THE GOVERNMENT, SOME PEOPLE ARE DOING IT, NOTHING CAME OUT SO FAR, AND WE HEAR LATELY THAT THERE WERE MORE REINFORCEMENTS ARE COMING INTO THE CAMP. THE PALESTINIANS IN LEBANON, THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY FORCES, FATAH AND THE OTHERS IN LEBANON, ALL OF THEM ARE AGAINST THIS GROUP. AND THEY DON’T BELIEVE THIS IS IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE PALESTINIANS IN LEBANON, AND IT’S NOT TO THE BEST INTEREST OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE PALESTINIANS AND LEBANESE IN THE LONG RUN. SO I HOPE THIS CAN COME TO AN END. THE LAST THING WE WANT TO DO IS TO SEE THAT THE LEBANESE ARMY AND A PALESTINIAN GROUP IS FIGHTING EACH OTHER, BUT THIS GROUP IS NOT MAINSTREAM PALESTINIAN GROUP. IT DOESN’T HAVE THE BEST INTERESTS OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE AT ITS HEART. AND YOU KNOW HOW IT STARTED, BY KILLING LEBANESE ARMY, YOUNG LEBANESE ARMY MEN WHILE THEY WERE SLEEPING. THEY SLAUGHTERED THEM WHEN THEY WERE ASLEEP.

J.Z.: LET’S GO TO ILLINOIS FOR A CALL. CALLER?

Caller: YES. HI. IF POSSIBLE, CAN THE SISTER ELABORATE A LITTLE MORE WHY THERE SEEMS, IT APPEARS FROM THE NEWS VANTAGE POINT, WHY THERE IS NOT ENOUGH MUSLIM UNITY AMONGST THE LEBANESE, LEBANESE MUSLIMS, AS WELL AS THE PALESTINIAN REFUGEES? AND WHY ARE THEY PUT AT A REFUGEE STATUS AS OPPOSED TO SYRIA?

J.Z.: I THINK THE QUESTION IS NOT SO MUCH ABOUT THE INTERNAL LEBANESE, BUT BETWEEN LEBANESE AND PALESTINIANS, THE SOURCE OF THE DIVISION THAT EXISTS THERE. WHY THERE IS NOT MORE MUSLIM UNITY THERE?

Mudallali: IT’S NOT A MUSLIM PROBLEM, THE PROBLEM IN THE CAMP. THE PROBLEM IN THE CAMP IS THIS GROUP THAT’S, EVERYBODY IN THE CAMP SAYS IT’S ALIEN FROM THE CAMP. THEY CAME FROM OUTSIDE THE CAMP. THE HEAD OF THE GROUP, ABSI, USED TO—HE’S THE GUY WHO WAS IMPLICATED IN THE AMERICAN DIPLOMAT IN JORDAN. HE WAS IMPRISONED IN SYRIA FOR A SHORT TIME, AND HE WAS LET OUT AND WAS SENT TO LEBANON. AND HE WENT AND STARTED THIS GROUP IN LEBANON, AND THEY ARE USING THE PALESTINIANS IN THEIR POLITICAL GAIN.

J.Z.: IS THIS A SPILLOVER FROM IRAQ? ARE SOME OF THE FIGHTERS HERE PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY THE AL QAEDA—IRAQ MOVED TO LEBANON?

Mudallali: THE PROBLEM IS THAT—THE PROBLEM IS OUR BORDERS WITH SYRIA.
THE SYRIANS ARE NOT PREVENTING THESE PEOPLE FROM COMING TO LEBANON. WE DON’T SAY THAT THEY ARE LETTING THESE PEOPLE INTO LEBANON. THERE ARE—ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE COME INTO LEBANON FROM THE SYRIAN BORDER. AND THAT’S WHY
NOW YOU HAVE A UNITED NATIONS ASSESSMENT TEAM ON THE BORDER TO SEE WHAT CAN BE DONE TO SEAL THAT BORDER AND NOT LET TERRORISTS, WHETHER THEY’RE COMING FROM SYRIA OR FROM IRAQ OR ANY OTHER COUNTRY, TO COME INTO LEBANON BECAUSE
WE HAVE A REAL PROBLEM NOW ON THE SYRIAN-LEBANESE BORDER.

J.Z.: LET’S GO INTO THE SOUTH FOR A MINUTE. 1701 CALLED FOR SEVERAL THINGS, BUT HEZBOLLAH APPEARS, OR FROM SOME REPORTS, STRONGER THAN IT WAS BEFORE, OR AT LEAST AT LEAST AS STRONG. THEY SEEMED TO REARM. WHAT KIND OF A THREAT DOES THAT POSE? AND WHAT CAN BE DONE THERE?

Mudallali: YOU KNOW, 1701 SO FAR, IT’S DOING WELL. THE UNIFIL IS DOING VERY WELL IN THE SOUTH. THE SITUATION HAS STABILIZED IN THE SOUTH SINCE THEY CAME.
WE HAVEN’T SEEN ANYTHING. THERE ARE REPORTS THAT HEZBOLLAH IS REARMING, BUT IT’S NOT WITHIN THE AREA OF OPERATION OF UNIFIL AND THEE 1701. IT’S OUTSIDE ON THE NORTHERN LITANI AREA. THE SITUATION IS STABLE, BUT VERY FRAGILE IN THE SOUTH. AND WE HAVE A REPORT COMING UP IN THE UNITED NATIONS AT THE END OF THE MONTH, AND THEN WE’LL SEE WHAT THE UNITED NATIONS SAYS ABOUT THE ASSESSMENT OF THE SITUATION IN THE SOUTH. BUT SO FAR, IT’S STABLE.

J.Z.: TALK TO ME ABOUT HEZBOLLAH. I MEAN, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAS TROUBLED ME IS THAT WHILE THERE ARE LEGITIMATE SHIA CONCERNS IN TERMS OF THE ENFRANCHISEMENT OF THE COMMUNITY IN LEBANON, I MUST SAY FRANKLY, I COULD NOT UNDERSTAND SEEING WHAT HAPPENED LAST YEAR A VICTORY FOR ANYBODY. I MEAN,
THE ISRAELIS CORRECTLY UNDERSTOOD THEY SUFFERED A LOSS. I WROTE AN ARTICLE RECENTLY. I SAID SOMETHING ABOUT, “WE CAN’T BE SO DOWN THAT THIS LOOKS LIKE UP”—THAT LOSING 1,200 PEOPLE, HAVING THE ECONOMY DESTROYED, HAVING SO MUCH OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE DESTROYED, HOW DOES THAT COME OFF AS A VICTORY? AND IS THERE NOT A RECOGNITION IN LEBANON, BEYOND THE MARCH 14th COMMUNITY, THAT THIS JUST DIDN’T WORK, THAT LEBANON DIDN’T WIN FROM THIS PROVOCATION?

Mudallali: YOU KNOW, I REMEMBER WHAT SOMEBODY SAID AFTER THE WAR. HE SAID, “IF THIS IS HOW VICTORY LOOKS, I WONDER HOW DEFEAT IS.” THE PROBLEM WITH THAT VICTORY IS THAT IT’S COST LEBANON A LOT—A LOT IN LIVES, IN INFRASTRUCTURE, IN DAMAGE, IN ECONOMIC ACTIVITY, IN ECONOMIC PROSPECTS AND POTENTIAL LOSS FOR THAT WAR. WE LOST A LOT THROUGH THAT WAR. AND DESPITE THAT, WE HOPE THAT THAT WILL PUT THE END OF THAT MENTALITY OF PUNISHING US FOR THE MISTAKES THAT OTHERS MAKE. AND WE HOPE THAT THIS WILL CREATE AN OPPORTUNITY WHERE LEBANON WILL GO BACK AND WILL LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED AND LEARN A LESSON AND WILL GO FORWARD.
BUT UNFORTUNATELY, SINCE THEN WHAT WE HAVE SEEN THAT HEZBOLLAH TURNED ON THE INTERNAL SITUATION, AND WE HAVE SEEN NOW INSIDE LEBANON, INSIDE BEIRUT, A SITUATION THAT’S GOING TO—KEEPING LEBANON AND KEEPING BEIRUT UNDER ANOTHER POLITICAL AND ANOTHER ECONOMIC STRAIN THAT’S TAKING AWAY ALL ITS RESOURCES, TAKING AWAY ALL IT PROSPECTS OF STANDING BACK ON ITS FEET.

J.Z.: LET’S GO TO U.K. FOR A CALLER. CALLER? HELLO?
HELLO? U.K.?

Caller: HELLO?

J.Z.: YES, YOUR QUESTION?

Caller: HELLO? YES. MY QUESTION IS -

J.Z.: WE LOST U.K. BACK TO MY QUESTION ABOUT HEZBOLLAH. IS THERE A PRICE TO PAY POLITICALLY WITHIN THEIR OWN CONSTITUENCY, OR IS SUPPORT STILL STRONG FOR WHAT HAPPENED AND WHAT IS STILL HAPPENING?

Mudallali: HEZBOLLAH IS STILL VERY POPULAR IN THE SHIITE COMMUNITY. BUT
FOR US, IT IS NOT GOOD FOR US TO KEEP ON LOOKING BACK AND SEE WHO MADE MISTAKES AND WHAT HAPPENED. IT HAPPENED. NOW WE HAVE TO LOOK TO THE FUTURE.
AND WE HOPE THAT HEZBOLLAH CAN COME TO THE TABLE AND SIT DOWN AND HAS A LOT OF THINGS TO GIVE IN TERMS OF THE DIFFUSING THE SITUATION INTERNAL IN THE COUNTRY BY PUTTING AN END TO THIS SITUATION IN DOWNTOWN BEIRUT, TO PUTTING AN END TO THE POLITICAL CRISIS IN THE PARTICULAR SITUATION, IN THE POLITICAL ARENA IN THE COUNTRY. WE HAVE TO FIND A SOLUTION TO MOVE FORWARD. LEBANON CAN’T CONTINUE. WE HAVE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS COMING UP. WE HAVE TO FIND A SOLUTION FOR SEPTEMBER. WE HAVE TO AGREE TO FIND A PRESIDENT BECAUSE THE ALTERNATIVE IS TERRIBLE FOR LEBANON AND FOR EVERYBODY, INCLUDING HEZBOLLAH AND US.

J.Z.: YOU TALKED IN THE BEGINNING ABOUT THE INTERNAL AND THE EXTERNAL.
LET’S FOCUS ON THE EXTERNAL FOR A MINUTE. THE ROLE THAT SYRIA AND IRAN PLAY, OBVIOUSLY OF CONCERN TO MANY LEBANESE, BUT CELEBRATED BY OTHERS.
AGAIN, IN THE POLLING THAT WE DO, THERE’S A TOTAL DIVISION IN THE COUNTRY.
TELL ME, FROM YOUR ASSESSMENT, DO THOSE COUNTRIES PULL THE STRINGS, OR DO THEY SIMPLY SUPPORT THE GROUPS THAT SUPPORT THEM? WHO WAGS THE DOG HERE?

Mudallali: YOU KNOW, THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT VIEWS ON WHO IS DOING WHAT IN LEBANON, WHETHER, YOU KNOW, THE ACTORS IN LEBANON ARE MERELY TAKING ORDERS FROM SYRIA AND IRAN, OR IT’S THE OTHER WAY AROUND-THE LOCAL ACTORS ARE PULLING SYRIA AN IRAN INTO THE SITUATION. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THAT LEBANON IS CAUGHT NOW IN THE REGIONAL PROBLEM BETWEEN IRAN, SYRIA ON ONE SIDE, AND THEN THE WEST AND, THE UNITED STATES AND THE WEST ON THE OTHER SIDE. YOU HAVE SO MANY FACTORS COMING IN. UNFORTUNATELY, THE LEBANESE HAVE NOT LEARNED THEIR LESSON THAT LEBANON SHOULD NOT BE PUT IN BETWEEN TWO POWERS BECAUSE LEBANON WOULD BE THE LOSER. LEBANON CANNOT REALLY AFFORD TO LET ITSELF BE USED BY REGIONAL ACTORS, AND WE HAVE TO REALLY SIT DOWN TOGETHER AS LEBANESE AND FIND A WAY TO PUT OUR ACT TOGETHER, PUT OUR HOUSE IN ORDER, AND FIND A POLITICAL SOLUTION INSIDE LEBANON.

J.Z.: LET’S GO TO PENNSYLVANIA FOR A LAST CALL. CALLER?

Caller: HI THERE.

J.Z.: HI. YOUR QUESTION?

Caller: DO YOU THINK THERE WILL EVER BE PEACE IN LEBANON?

Mudallali: OF COURSE THERE WILL BE PEACE IN LEBANON. I THINK LEBANON NOW IS LIVING THROUGH THE SECOND WAR OF INDEPENDENCE. I DIDN’T BELIEVE THAT. AND
THERE’S A PRICE TO PAY, AND WE’VE BEEN PAYING IT FOR TWO YEARS.
IT’S NOT GOING TO BE EASY. IT’S GOING TO BE COSTLY, AND UNFORTUNATELY WE’RE PAYING WITH THE BLOOD OF OUR POLITICIANS, OF OUR YOUNG LEADERS. BUT IN THE END LEBANON WILL WIN. AND WE’LL SEE.

J.Z.: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.
UP NEXT, WE’RE GONNA GET THE LATEST ON THE EVENTS IN PAKISTAN, AND WE’LL TAKE MORE OF YOUR CALLS. STAY WITH US. WE’LL BE RIGHT BACK.
I’M JIM ZOGBY, AND YOU’RE WATCHING “VIEWPOINT.” MY NEXT GUEST IS MOWAHID HUSSAIN. HE’S THE PUNJAB CABINET MINISTER AND SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO THE PUNJAB CHIEF MINISTER, ALSO SERVES AS AN ADVISOR TO THE FORMER PRIME MINISTER OF PAKISTAN, CHAUDHRY HUSSAIN. LET’S SEE. YOU’VE BEEN ON THE SHOW BEFORE. PAKISTAN IS GOING THROUGH DIFFICULT TIMES, AND I WANTED TO HAVE YOU COME BACK AND TALK A LITTLE ABOUT THIS CURRENT CRISIS THAT IS UNDERWAY. I’M READING A PRESS REPORT FROM THE “LOS ANGELES TIMES,” AND IT SAYS THAT GENERAL MUSHARRAF “APPEARS TO BE TRAPPED IN A LABYRINTH OF HIS OWN MAKING.” ASSESS THAT.

Mowahid Hussain: I THINK THERE ARE SOME COMPLEX SITUATIONS WHICH INTERSECT. FIRST IS THE SO-CALLED WAR ON TERROR, WHICH IS AN UNPOPULAR WAR TO BEGIN WITH
FOR THERE IS THIS NEGATIVE SUBTEXT. THEN THERE IS THE QUESTION OF THE FUTURE OF PAKISTAN ELECTION. THIS IS AN ELECTION YEAR. THEN THERE’S A QUESTION OF WHAT WILL BE THE ROLE OF THE FUTURE GOVERNMENT, MUCH MUSHARRAF’S OWN ROLE, AND NOW THIS JUDICIAL CRISIS WHICH IS MORPHING INTO A BROADER CRISIS. SO ALL THESE NEGATIVES ARE NOW INTERSECTING AND COMING TOGETHER. BUT, LET’S NOT FORGET ONE THING, THAT IT IS A PART OF THIS GLOBAL VORTEX UNLEASHED BY THE POST-9/11 IN WHICH PAKISTAN IS QUITE PIVOTAL. SO THIS IS ONE SITUATION WHERE THE PRESIDENT HAS COME UNDER TREMENDOUS PRESSURE, AND THIS HAS ADDED TO THE PRESSURE.

J.Z.: TRYING TO ASK, GET THE PARLIAMENT, THE CURRENT SITTING PARLIAMENT, TO RENEW HIS TERM IN OFFICE, TO REELECT HIM BEFORE A NEW ELECTION, WAS THAT A MISTAKE?

Hussain: I THINK THE MISTAKE WAS IN BAD OPTICS. THERE WAS A PROBLEM WITH THE ROLE AND CONDUCT OF THE CHIEF JUSTICE. AND IT STARTED WITH THE FILING OF THE REFERENCE OF ALLEGED MISCONDUCT ON THE PART OF THE CHIEF JUSTICE BEFORE THE SUPREME JUDICIAL COUNCIL. I THINK A MISTAKE WAS MADE, FIRST OF ALL, PROPER PEOPLE WERE NOT CONSULTED. THE ISSUE WAS NOT VETTED, AND THE CHIEF JUSTICE MET MUSHARRAF, AND MUSHARRAF MET HIM IN UNIFORM. AND THAT WAS BROADCAST ON OFFICIAL TV. SO IT WAS BAD OPTICS, AND IT BECAME PERSONALIZED. WHAT WAS BASICALLY A LEGAL ISSUE BECAME PERSONALIZED, AND THEN IT BASICALLY TOOK OFF FROM THERE.

J.Z.: DEMONSTRATIONS IN THE STREETS. THE CHIEF JUSTICE SEEMS TO HAVE SOME SUPPORT. IS IT SUPPORT FOR A PRINCIPLE, OR IS IT SUPPORT BECAUSE THIS IS A COALESCING OF OPPOSITION GROUPS WHO ARE OPPOSED TO PRESIDENT MUSHARRAF FOR OTHER REASONS?

Hussain: I THINK THIS IS A COALESCING OF OTHER ISSUES. ONE WAS THE RISING INFLATION, NUMBER ONE. THAT WAS ONE ISSUE. THEN THERE IS THE ISSUE OF BASICALLY A BIT OF A FATIGUE WITH THE EXISTING GOVERNMENT. THERE’S ALWAYS THIS.
HE’S BEEN THERE FOR EIGHT YEARS. IN PAKISTAN THERE’S A BIT, AFTER A FEW YEARS THERE’S A FATIGUE AGAINST, I THINK, SITTING INCUMBENTS. THEN AS I MENTIONED ABOUT UNRESOLVED SITUATION NEXT TO AND IN AFGHANISTAN. THEN THE BROADER REGIONAL TENSIONS OVERFLOWING FROM THE SITUATION IN IRAQ. THEN THERE’S A PAN-ISLAMIC DISCONTENT, OCCUPATION SITUATIONS, PALESTINE AND CHECHNYA AND ALSO IN KASHMIR. SO ALL THESE THINGS ARE BASICALLY COMMINGLING TOGETHER AND CREATING A PROBLEM.

J.Z.: IF THERE IS AN ELECTION IN PAKISTAN NOW, A NEW ELECTION FOR A NEW PARLIAMENT, WHAT WOULD HAPPEN? WHERE WOULD THE CENTER OF GRAVITY BE?

Hussain: I THINK THAT COUPLE OF FORCES THERE. FIRST OF ALL THERE IS THE MUSLIM LEAGUE, RULING MUSLIM LEAGUE PARTY. THEY ARE QUITE—THEY HAVE A ROLE IN THERE.
THEN THE PEOPLE’S PARTY LED BY BHUTTO. THEN THERE’S THE RELIGIOUS COALITION.

J.Z.: WILL SHE COME BACK?

Hussain: I THINK SHE HAS SIGNIFICANT PROBLEM. FIRST OF ALL, SHE NO JOAN OF ARC.
SHE’S NOT OUTSIDE BECAUSE SHE’S CHE GUEVARA OR MENDES, BECAUSE OF ALLEGATIONS OF FINANCIAL IMPROPRIETY. AND SHE HAS ALREADY BEEN INDICTED IN SWISS COURTS AND ALSO U.K. COURTS. TO THAT ISSUE, SHE NOT BASICALLY EXILED BECAUSE OF IDEOLOGY, BECAUSE OF ISSUES FINANCIAL IMPROPRIETIES INVOLVING HER AND HER HUSBAND.
THAT’S THE MAJOR ISSUE. AND YES, THERE HAVE BEEN OVERTURES FROM THE GOVERNMENT TO HER, BUT SO FAR NOTHING HAS COME OUT OF IT.

J.Z.: TALK TO ME ABOUT THAT BECAUSE THERE WAS SOME DISCUSSION OF THE OPTIONS THAT PRESIDENT MUSHARRAF HAS. ONE IS HE CAN FORM A COALITION WITH THAT PARTY, MAYBE TO STRENGTHEN HIS POSITION. SOME SUGGEST HE JUST MAY RIDE THIS OUT AND WEATHER THE STORM, BEAT BACK THE OPPOSITION. AND THIRD IS THAT HE MIGHT STEP ASIDE. AND FOURTH, IS SOMETHING THAT HE MIGHT NOT DO, BUT THAT THE MILITARY MIGHT JUST WEARY OF THE WHOLE THING AND OUST HIM. WALK ME THROUGH THE 4 OF THOSE.

Hussain: I THINK, FIRST OF ALL, IF HE BASICALLY HAS A COALITION WITH BENAZIR, IT WILL BE A PROBLEM BECAUSE HE HAS COME ON THE PLANK OF ACCOUNTABILITY.
AND TO MAKE AN ALLIANCE OF CONVENIENCE WITH A PERSON WHO HE HIMSELF HAS IMPLICATED FOR FINANCIAL MISCONDUCT WOULD BE A PROBLEM. RIDING IT—I THINK IT ACTUALLY, I THINK WOULD BE DIFFICULT. ELECTIONS IN THIS EXISTING CIRCUMSTANCE WOULD ALSO BE OF A TASK BECAUSE FIRST OF ALL, THERE’S A SITTING PARLIAMENT WHICH HAS TO DO SO ACCORDING TO HIS SCENARIO. SECONDLY THERE WOULD BE, INEVITABLY, PETITIONS FILED AGAINST MUSHARRAF’S ATTEMPT TO DO SO BEFORE A NEWLY ASSERTIVE SUPREME. AND THE PRESS IS VERY LIVELY. AND THEN THERE’S THE QUESTION YOU’RE TAKING OF PRAETORIAN TAKEOVER. THESE ARE ALL SCENARIOS, BUT MUSHAHID TODAY, I THINK, MADE A VERY GOOD COMMENT. HE’S THE RULING SECRETARY GENERAL.
HE SAID THAT FIRST OF ALL THEY SHOULD BE, THE PRESIDENT SHOULD CALL AN ALL PARTIES CONFERENCE AND CONSULT WITH THE OPPOSITION AND COME UP WITH THE NEW RULES OF GAME AND RELEASE ALL POLITICAL PRISONERS AS A GESTURE OF GOOD FAITH BECAUSE THAT COULD BE THE BEGINNING OF THE PROCESS OF RECONCILIATION.
I DON’T KNOW WHETHER THAT IS—HOW FEASIBLE THAT WOULD BE AT THIS PARTICULAR JUNCTURE.

J.Z.: LET’S GET YOU INTO THE CONVERSATION OUT THERE. IF YOU’RE CALLING FROM
OVERSEAS IT’S 001-202-842-5056. IF YOU’RE CALLING FROM HERE IN THE U.S. IT’S 1-800-528-2090. THERE’S NO QUESTION THAT THERE’S UNREST IN PAKISTAN UNRELATED TO THE INTERNAL POLITICAL DYNAMIC IN THE COUNTRY THAT COMES FROM, AS YOU NOTED IN THE BEGINNING, THE WAY THE WAR IN TERROR HAS BEEN CONDUCTED. THERE ARE TALIBAN BASES IN THE NORTH MOVING BACK AND FORTH ACROSS THE COUNTRY INTO AFGHANISTAN.
IT’S BECOME A DIFFICULTY. THE WAR IN AFGHANISTAN HAS NOT BEEN POPULAR AMONG MANY. THE WAR IN IRAQ IS LESS POPULAR AMONG THE MORE. AND GENERAL MUSHARRAF, PRESIDENT MUSHARRAF HAS PAID A PRICE FOR HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED STATES, WHICH IS A MAIN SUPPORTER OF HIS ADMINISTRATION. HOW IS THAT ALL PLAYING OUT? AND AT THIS POINT IS THE U.S. AN ASSET OR LIABILITY?

Hussain: I THINK BOTH. BECAUSE U.S. PRESENCE IN ONE RESPECT SHOWS THERE IS NO WAR WITH INDIA. THAT’S ONE THING. BUT AGAIN, U.S. PRESENCE GOES AGAINST CERTAIN SITUATIONS. FOR EXAMPLE, THERE IS A CLIMATE OF ISLAMAPHOBIA AND THERE’S ALSO ISSUE OF HATE SPEECH EMANATING FROM WASHINGTON FROM SENIOR CONTENDERS FOR THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE. AND THERE’S ALSO THE ISSUE OF AFGHANISTAN. AFGHANISTAN HAS NOT BEEN PACIFIED BY THE BRITISH, NOT BY THE RUSSIANS, NOT BY THE AMERICANS, NOT BY THE NATO. TO EXPECT PAKISTAN TO DO WHAT BIGGER POWERS HAVE FAILED TO DO, I THINK, IS ALSO UNREALISTIC. BUT PAKISTAN IS ESSENTIALLY A PAN-ISLAMIC COUNTRY. AND THE FACT THAT WHEN U.S. POLITICIANS WHO WANT TO HAVE AN ALLIANCE WITH PAKISTAN USE BAD LANGUAGE FIRST AGAINST ISLAM, THEN USE NEGATIVE IMAGERY ABOUT MUSLIMS, AND THIRDLY WHEN THEY URGE PAKISTAN TO DO MORE WITHOUT MAKING COMMENSURATE EFFORTS TO RECTIFY THEIR OWN STANCE, I THINK THAT CAUSES OTHER PROBLEM. THERE’S INFLEXIBILITY IN WASHINGTON ABOUT ITS OWN ATTITUDE TOWARDS THE MUSLIM WORLD. WASHINGTON WANTS PAKISTAN AND THE MUSLIM WORLD TO MAKE CHANGES WHILE UNWILLING TO MAKE CHANGES THEMSELVES. THIS IS NOT GOING TO WORK. SO
EXTREMISM IS A TWO-WAY STREET. ZEALOTRY IS A TWO-WAY STREET. FOR WASHINGTON TO HAVE SUBSTANTIVE CHANGE DEVELOPING IN PAKISTAN OR ELSEWHERE, THEY HAVE TO MAKE CHANGES AND REVIEW THEIR OWN POLICIES IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND THE MUSLIM WORLD.

J.Z.: LET’S GO WASHINGTON STATE FOR A CALLER. CALLER? HELLO?

Caller: YEAH, HI. MY QUESTION IS THAT, IS NOT DR. MUSHARRAF’S GOVERNMENT BETTER THAN THE PREVIOUS CORRUPT GOVERNMENTS OF PAKISTAN?

J.Z.: THANK YOU.

Hussain: I THINK THE CALLER HAS MADE A VALID POINT BECAUSE MUSHARRAF HAS MADE TREMENDOUS ATTEMPTS TO OPEN UP THE MEDIA. THERE ARE OVER 40 PRIVATE TV OUTLETS.
IN MY HOMETOWN LAHORE THERE ARE 6, 7 ENGLISH NEWSPAPERS, ALL OF THEM ABSOLUTELY FREE AND FREE OF CENSORSHIP. SO PAKISTAN HAS—THERE’S BEEN A TREMENDOUS OPENING UP. WE HAVE A PARLIAMENT, NOT A PERFECT PARLIAMENT, BUT AT LEAST THERE’S A ROBUST AND LIVELY DEBATE. AND I THINK THE CALLER HAS MADE A VALID POINT.
EVEN WHEN THE MILITARY COMES, AND LET’S NOT FORGET IT’S THE PARTY’S BUILT BY ABOUT CIVILIAN INEPTITUDE AND CIVILIAN VENALITY.

J.Z.: BUT ON THE QUESTION OF CORRUPTION, TRANSPARENCY INTERNATIONAL RANKS COUNTRIES IN TERMS OF TRANSPARENCY AND LACK OF CORRUPTION. PAKISTAN COMES IN 142 OUT OF 163. THE PROBLEM SEEMS ENDEMIC.

Hussain: I THINK THAT IT’S PROBABLY OVERSTATED. YES, THERE IS CORRUPTION. THERE IS VENALITY LIKE YOU HAVE CORRUPTION IN THE UNITED STATES, FOR EXAMPLE.

J.Z.: WE DON’T CALL IT THAT. WE CALL IT CAMPAIGN FINANCING.

Hussain: I’LL GIVE YOU ONE EXAMPLE. FOR EXAMPLE, THERE ARE 535 CONGRESSMEN, 435 MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 100 SENATORS. NOT ONE OF THEM WILL BE WILLING TO MAKE A CRITICAL REFERENCE ABOUT ISRAEL. THAT FOR ME REPRESENT A FORM OF POLITICAL CORRUPTION. BECAUSE WHEN YOU ARE UNWILLING TO BASICALLY INCLUDE A MAJOR COUNTRY INTO CRITICAL SCRUTINY, AND WHEN YOU EXEMPT THAT COUNTRY CRITICAL DISCUSSION—PAKISTAN HAS PROBLEMS. BUT I THINK EFFORT ARE MADE, THERE IS RECOGNITION THAT WE SHOULD FIGHT IT OUT. IT’S ALSO PART OF THE FEUDAL CULTURE.
AND ALSO I THINK, THAT’S WHY I FEEL THAT DEMOCRACY ITSELF AS IT IS BEEN TRADITIONALLY CONCEIVED THROUGH ELECTIONS MAY NOT OFFER VERY GOOD SOLUTIONS.
BECAUSE AGAIN, IT WILL, AS IN AMERICA, IT WILL PERPETUATE DYNASTIES INSTEAD OF OPENING UP THE SYSTEM. BECAUSE ELECTIONS WHERE MONEY PLAYS A MAJOR ROLE,
BECOME IN EFFECT, AUCTIONS. AND UNDER THE HIJAB OF DEMOCRACIES, YOU SEE BASICALLY DYNASTIES DEVELOPING. SO, BUT PEOPLE, THE CIVIL SOCIETY IN PAKISTAN HAS TAKEN COGNIZANCE OF THE ISSUE OF CORRUPTION. AND THAT IS ONE ISSUE WHICH HAS BECOMING A [INDISTINCT] ISSUE. AND PEOPLE ARE FIGHTING IT OUT. I THINK
THERE’S A GREATER AWARENESS ABOUT THIS.

J.Z.: >> LET’S GO TO MASSACHUSETTS FOR A CALL. CALLER?

Caller: YEAH, HI. MY QUESTION IS FOR MR. MOWAHID HASSAIN. AND THE QUESTION IS REGARDING MUSHARRAF’S REGIME. I MEAN, SO MANY PEOPLE ARE SUPPORTING HIM, AND THE CURRENT POLITICAL SITUATION REGARDING THAT OF [INDISTINCT], I THINK IT IS MORE OF A POLITICAL DRAMA WITH THAT OF PEOPLE’S AND [INDISTINCT] NAGGING AND TAGGING WITH THIS PERSON. I MEAN, SO MANY PEOPLE SUPPORT HIM, AND IN THE PAST, TOO. I MEAN, THE GOVERNMENTS HAVE BEEN SO MUCH CORRUPT, THERE IS NO OTHER CHOICE AVAILABLE FOR PAKISTANIS AS SUCH.

Hussain: I THINK HE’S MADE A VERY GOOD POINT BECAUSE THERE IS A POLITICAL EXPLOITATION OF THE SITUATION. FOR EXAMPLE, SOME OF THE LAWYERS WHO ARE DEFENDING FORMER CHIEF JUSTICE IFTIKHAR CHAUDHRY ARE ALIGNED WITH THE PEOPLE’S PARTY. SO THEY HAVE A MOTIVE TO KEEP THE CAULDRON BOILING. BUT I THINK THAT SOMETIMES IN OUR CULTURE, PARTICULARLY THE SUBCULTURE IN THE CULTURE, THERE IS A TENDENCY TO OVER-COMPROMISE. I THINK WE MAY HAVE HURT OURSELVES IN BRINGING INTO GOVERNMENT PEOPLE WHOSE CREDENTIALS MAY NOT BE THE FINEST. SO I THINK THAT, I HOPE THAT THIS SITUATION GIVES US THE OPPORTUNITY TO LOOK INWARD AND SEE WHERE ARE WE ERRING AND TRY TO RECTIFY THAT. BECAUSE ESSENTIALLY IT’S THE QUESTION OF PAKISTAN’S FUTURE. IT’S THE QUESTION OF THE REGIONAL FUTURE. AND AS I SAY, PAKISTAN IS PIVOTAL IN THE SO-CALLED WAR OF TERROR, SO IT AFFECTS ALSO GLOBAL STABILITY. AND I HOPE WE ARE ABLE TO DO IT HONESTLY AND FAIRLY.
BUT, AGAIN, IN THIS SITUATION WASHINGTON, TOO, HAS TO PAUSE AND REFLECT ABOUT ITS POLICIES. FIRST OF ALL, USE OF FORCE AND THEN THE CONSTANT USE OF NEGATIVITY. I SEE IN THE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATES HERE THIS CONSTANT REFERENCE TO PAKISTAN IN A NEGATIVE WAY OR TO THE MUSLIM RELIGION IN A VERY NEGATIVE WAY.
SO IT HAS TO BE A TWO-WAY STREET. BOTH SIDES I THINK HAVE TO BASICALLY SHOW A BIT OF GOOD SENSE, PRUDENCE, AND BASIC HUMAN DECENCY IN TALKING WITH EACH OTHER. BECAUSE YOU SHOULD NEVER FORGET THAT IN THIS GLOBALIZED WORLD WE ARE SAILING BASICALLY IN THE SAME HISTORIC BOAT.

J.Z.: THE GOVERNMENT MADE A MISTAKE THAT IT ADMITTED AFTER A BIT. THEY SUSPENDED THE MEDIA RESTRICTIONS. THEY PUT RESTRICTIONS ON THE MEDIA AND THEN IMMEDIATELY PULLED THEM BACK. WHAT WAS THAT ALL ABOUT, AND HOW BIG WAS THE UPROAR IN THE MEDIA THE REASON WHY THOSE RESTRICTIONS WERE RESCINDED?

Hussain: THERE WAS A VIEW IN THE GOVERNMENT THAT THIS ISSUE HAS BEEN INFLATED BECAUSE OF LIVE COVERAGE OF THE CHIEF JUSTICE PROCESSIONS FOR DIFFERENT CITIES AND RALLIES. THAT WAS ONE VIEW. AND THERE WAS A REACTION TO COME UP WITH [INDISTINCT], BUT I THINK THIS MISTAKE WAS REALIZED AND [INDISTINCT] BACK. RIGHT NOW AGAIN, THE COVERAGE IS AGAIN FREE.

J.Z.: GIVE US A CALL TO GET INTO THE CONVERSATION. OVERSEAS THE NUMBER OO1-202-842-5056. IF YOU’RE CALLING FROM HERE IN THE U.S. IT’S 1-800-528-2090.
I ASKED YOU THE QUESTION BEFORE IN ONE WAY. I WANT TO ASK IT SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT. LOOK INTO THE CRYSTAL BALL, IF YOU WOULD, A NEAR-FUTURE CRYSTAL BALL, NEXT COUPLE OF MONTHS. DOES THE GOVERNMENT WEATHER THE STORM,
OR IS THIS GOING TO CONTINUE TO ACCELERATE?

Hussain: I THINK THAT FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO WEATHER THE STORM, THEY HAVE TO COME UP WITH SOME BREAKTHROUGH INITIATIVES.

J.Z.: BUT THE QUESTION IS, WILL THEY? DO YOU HAVE CONFIDENCE THAT THE STORM WILL BE WEATHERED, OR ARE YOU THINKING THE SITUATION’S ON PINS AND NEEDLES?

Hussain: I THINK THAT IT’S—FOR ME TO SAY THAT THEY CAN WEATHER IT WOULD BE, I THINK, WOULD BE BASED ON GUESS. I THINK IT’S A QUESTION OF GOOD JUDGMENT, GOOD POLITICS, AND BASICALLY COURAGEOUS DECISIONS. AND DE-LINKING ONE PERSONAL AGENDA WITH THE FUTURE AGENDA OF PAKISTAN, I DON’T KNOW WHETHER THIS COULD BE DONE IN THE NEXT 60 DAYS BECAUSE THE ISSUE HAS BECOME QUITE BIG. AND
IT REQUIRES GREATNESS OF HEART, BASICALLY, TO TACKLE IT.

J.Z.: THE CHIEF JUSTICE, HAS HE BECOME A POLITICAL PLAYER, OR IS HIS TIME COME AND GONE?

Hussain: I THINK HE’S NOT A VERY CONSEQUENTIAL FIGURE. HE NEVER WAS TO BEGIN WITH. BUT HE BECAME AN ICON OF PROTEST, A SYMBOL OF PROTEST AGAINST THE STATUS QUO. AND HE’S BASICALLY BEEN ABLE TO MAKE THE CASE THAT THIS ISSUE IS A BREACH OF JUDICIAL INDEPENDENCE AND EXCESSIVE INTERFERENCE AND JUDGMENT OF THE COURTS.
AND THAT CASE HAS BEEN MADE, BUT IT HAS BEEN LINKED WITH THE BROADER DISSATISFACTION OVER THE EXISTING SITUATION IN PAKISTAN. AND SO FAR, I THINK THE ISSUE HAS NOT BEEN AS IMAGINATIVELY HANDLED FROM THE GOVERNMENT SIDE AS IT COULD HAVE BEEN. I DON’T THINK THE SCALE OF THIS PROTEST WAS CORRECTLY UNDERSTOOD IN THE BEGINNING.

J.Z.: LET’S GO TO IOWA FOR A CALL. CALLER?

Caller: YES. INTERESTING COMMENT THAT YOUR GUEST HAS MADE ABOUT ISLAM.
AND I AM INTERESTED IN KNOWING WHAT MIGHT BE DONE TO CURB THE FEAR OF ISLAM IN THE WORLD, PARTICULARLY IN THE UNITED STATES. I THINK IT’S IMPORTANT THAT THAT BE DEALT WITH. AND HOW MIGHT THAT HAPPEN THAT PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES BECOME LESS FEARFUL OF ISLAM?

J.Z.: THANK YOU.

Hussain: I THINK MORE UNDERSTANDING, MORE REALIZATION. AND I THINK ONE OR TWO—THIS LANGUAGE OF CONFRONTATION I THINK IS CONTRIBUTING TO IT. AND I THINK INADVERTENTLY THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION WHEN THEY USE VERY STRONG LANGUAGE, EXTREME LANGUAGE, LANGUAGE OF ISLAMIC TERRORISM, ISLAMIC FASCISM, ISLAMIC EXTREMISM, THAT ITSELF INADVERTENTLY CREATES FEAR IN THE GRASSROOTS.
BUT LET’S NOT FORGET ONE THING, ALONE OF THE THREE MAJOR FAITHS, ISLAM, JUDAISM, AND CHRISTIANITY, ISLAM DOES RECOGNIZE THE LEGITIMACY OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH, THE LEGITIMACY OF THE JEWISH FAITH, DOES RECOGNIZE MOSES AS A PROPHET, DOES RECOGNIZE CHRIST AS A PROPHET, DOES—HAS TREMENDOUS RESPECT OVER FOR MANY.
I THINK MORE UNDERSTANDING BECAUSE SOMETIMES I FEEL THAT VERY EDUCATED PEOPLE, THOSE WHO HAVE GONE TO THE BEST COLLEGES HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO RID THEIR MIND OF BIGOTRY AND PREJUDICE. FOR EXAMPLE, THE CONCEPT OF CLASH OF CIVILIZATION DID NOT COME OUT FROM A MADRASA IN PAKISTAN. IT CAME OUT OF PRINCETON, BERNARD LEWIS, HE COINED THIS CONCEPT, AND WAS LATER POPULARIZED BY SAMUEL HUNTINGTON AT HARVARD. SO SOMETIMES VERY EDUCATED PEOPLE, ALTHOUGH THEY HAVE BEEN TO [INDISTINCT] SCHOOL, THEY HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO RID THEIR MIND OF PETTY PREJUDICES. AND THERE’S A LACK OF REALIZATION THAT THIS FINGER-POINTING IS VERY DAMAGING. AND THE ONLY REASON FINGER-POINTING TAKES PLACE IN AMERICA IS BECAUSE THE MUSLIMS ARE SEEN AS COMPARATIVELY WEAK WHO BASICALLY PROPORTIONATELY ANSWER BACK. WHEN THE JEWISH COMMUNITY WAS WEAK, IT WAS THE SAME SITUATION. NOW,
ROOSEVELT IS CONSIDERED AS AN ICON OF LIBERAL THINKING. WELL, LET’S NOT FORGET IN MARCH 1939 WHEN THE SHIP ST. LOUIS ASKING FOR SANCTUARY AT MIAMI, LOADED WITH JEWISH REFUGEES, IT WAS TURNED BACK. SO THERE’S A HUMAN TENDENCY BASICALLY, TO STAMP ON THOSE WHO ARE SEEN AS VULNERABLE. AND THIS IS—JIM AND I USED TO DISCUSS THIS AS A NEW ANTI-SEMITISM WHICH WE ARE SEEING ALL OVER AGAIN.
AS, JIM, YOU HAD PRESCIENTLY I THINK POINTED OUT A QUARTER CENTURY AGO WHEN WE WERE TOGETHER. SO I THINK THAT WE HAVE TO REALIZE THAT DESPITE ALL THE DIFFERENCES HAVE TODAY, WE ARE BASICALLY HUMAN BEINGS WITH SIMILAR FEARS, WITH SIMILAR ASPIRATIONS, LOVE, SECURITY, AND DIGNITY. AND IF WE UNDERSTAND THIS COMMON HUMANITY, I THINK WE CAN GO A LONG WAY, I THINK, FURTHER WAY. AND
I THINK IT’S VERY IMPORTANT TO REALIZE THAT IN THE MUSLIM WORLD YOU CANNOT USE FORCE TO SUBJUGATE BECAUSE THERE IS A CULTURE OF RESISTANCE. SO I FEEL THAT
THOSE WHO PURSUE PEACE, THEY HAVE TO JUMP ON THE TRAIN OF JUSTICE BEFORE, AND DO IT QUICKLY, BEFORE THE TRAIN LEAVES THE STATION.

J.Z.: THANK YOU. YOU HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN THIS STRUGGLE HERE IN THE STATES TO SORT OF TRANSFORM THE DIALOGUE, AND YOU’VE PUSHED THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY HERE TO BECOME MORE ENGAGED IN IT. BUT I’VE SEEN IN EVEN JUST THE LAST TWO YEARS THE SITUATION WORSEN. THE MOST RECENT POLL THAT WE DID SHOWS THAT MORE AMERICANS THAN EVER HAVE A NEGATIVE VIEW OF ISLAM. JUST A REAL QUICK—WE ONLY HAVE 30 SECONDS LEFT—ARE YOU HOPEFUL THIS CAN BE TURNED AROUND HERE? LOOK INTO YOUR CRYSTAL BALL HERE IN THE U.S. DOES IT GET BETTER, WORSE, OR JUST KEEPS GOING?

Hussain: I THINK IT WILL GET BETTER IF MUSLIM YOUTH, PARTICULARLY, STEPS UP TO THE PLATE. THEY ARE CONSTANTLY ON THE INTERNET. THEY ARE CONSTANTLY EMAILING. IT’S ABOUT TIME THEY SEND EMAILS TO [INDISTINCT], THEY TAKE PART IN THE CONVERSATION IN AMERICA. BECAUSE THERE’S GOODNESS IN AMERICA, THERE’S OPPORTUNITY IN AMERICA, THERE’S A LOT OF OPENNESS IN AMERICA. AND THEY HAVE TO UTILIZE THE BENEFITS OF LIVING IN AMERICA.

J.Z.: WELL, WE’RE OUT OF TIME. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

Hussain: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

J.Z.: [INDISTINCT] SOME OF YOU ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT MY HAND. I BROKE IT FIVE WEEKS AGO BEFORE I DID THE BAGHDAD SHOW, AND WHAT’S HAPPENED, THE CAST CAME OFF LAST WEEK, BUT I STILL HAVE THIS ON, SO THAT’S WHAT’S GOING ON HERE.
THAT’S ALL THE TIME WE’VE GOT. I WANT TO THANK MY GUESTS LAMIA MATTA, AMAL MUDALLALI, AND MUWAHID HUSSAIN. SEE YOU NEXT WEEK ON “VIEWPOINT.”